Posted on Dec 5, 2017
UK Digital Broadcast Disrupted by GPS Problems Third Year in a Row « Resilient Navigation and...
299
2
3
2
2
0
Just another example of how dependent upon and vulnerable our infrastructure is to any sort of GPS interruption. We need a back up, and sooner not later. eLORAN is the only ready to deploy, off the self alternative.
UK Digital Broadcast Disrupted by GPS Problems Third Year in a Row « Resilient Navigation and...
Posted from rntfnd.orgPosted in these groups: 
Electronics
GPS
Electronics GPS
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 1
0
0
0
PO1 Kevin Dougherty You're Really Into Stone Axes aren't You? LOL, Just Busting Your Chops, Most People Here have Never Heard of Loran-C. I used it. Not Quite as Accurate as GPS but an Excellent Back Up. I'm All for Old School. One Good EMP and this Fancy New Stuff is Toast and they're going to Need Old Dogs Like Us with Stone Axes.
(0)
(0)
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
Loran-C is more vulnerable to EMP than modern GPS is, but less so to solar flares. I really do not see how LORAN in any form is a backup for other than a very small percentage of GPS uses.
Not quite as accurate, that is like saying a stick of butter is not quite as sharp as a scalpel,
Not quite as accurate, that is like saying a stick of butter is not quite as sharp as a scalpel,
(0)
(0)
PO1 Kevin Dougherty
Actually the eLORAN system which is an upgrade to LORAN C provides navigation to within GPS minimum standards, the one significant limitation would be the inabbility to provide elevation. The USCG had just completed upgrading it's system to be eLORAN ready when the previous administration pulled the plug.
Macro events like solar flares or an EMP are actually a relatively minor concern. The reality is that both GPS will likely stand up pretty well against an EMP, however the vital infrastructure that society depends on is likely to fail catastrophically. Of greater concern would be the impact the radiation cloud would have on the GPS constellation.
The bigger issue with GPS is the issue of intentional jamming or spoofing by a party or nation with malicious intent. We are already seeing this on a limited, but growing basis. A basic jammer with a range of a kilometer or so range can be purchased on the open market for a few bucks. GPS depends on a signal in the GHZ range from a 20 watt transmitter on satellite over 10,000 miles away. The laws of physics dictate that the signal received will be quite weak and easily attenuated, and it is, with a S/N rqatio somewhere around -150/-200 depending on local interferance. LORAN C however uses terrestrial based stations operating at between 325KW and 1MW depending on the needed range, and at 100KHZ. That means the signal tends to follow the curvature of the earth, can penetrate most structures that would block a GPS signal, even penetrating water to 50 feet or more. Obviously the signal is much stronger and harder to jam, with a S/N ratio around 1/3.
This is already an issue in various locations. South Korea is building an extensive LORAN C system in response to frequent GPS jamming by North Korea. Similarly Saudi Arabia continues to maintain and upgrade their LORAN C stations due to issues with Iran. Ships in the black sea have reported positional errors of 20 miles or more, and visitors to Red Square in Moscow have had their GPS tell them they were at the Moscow Airport. Not to be lost in this conversation is that the USSR still operates and uses their LORAN C system.
The thing is, the bad guys do not need to take out our satellites, or spoof our GPS system, all they need to do is deny the signal or introduce a timing error to cripple our infrastructure. Most people do not realize the degree to which GPS timing has penetrated our critical systems, the markets, banking, utilities, transportation, broadcast, radio communications, phone, internet and just about any other system you care to name are dependent upon GPS timing to operate properly. Any interruption could as PO1 Chip Nagel so eloquently put it leave us with stone axes. GPS is a single system, which is to say it is a single point of failure. We would not go out on a ship, up in a plane, or into battle with no backup, no plan B, but right now we are living in a society with no plan B. I just hope hey rectify that before it is too late.
Macro events like solar flares or an EMP are actually a relatively minor concern. The reality is that both GPS will likely stand up pretty well against an EMP, however the vital infrastructure that society depends on is likely to fail catastrophically. Of greater concern would be the impact the radiation cloud would have on the GPS constellation.
The bigger issue with GPS is the issue of intentional jamming or spoofing by a party or nation with malicious intent. We are already seeing this on a limited, but growing basis. A basic jammer with a range of a kilometer or so range can be purchased on the open market for a few bucks. GPS depends on a signal in the GHZ range from a 20 watt transmitter on satellite over 10,000 miles away. The laws of physics dictate that the signal received will be quite weak and easily attenuated, and it is, with a S/N rqatio somewhere around -150/-200 depending on local interferance. LORAN C however uses terrestrial based stations operating at between 325KW and 1MW depending on the needed range, and at 100KHZ. That means the signal tends to follow the curvature of the earth, can penetrate most structures that would block a GPS signal, even penetrating water to 50 feet or more. Obviously the signal is much stronger and harder to jam, with a S/N ratio around 1/3.
This is already an issue in various locations. South Korea is building an extensive LORAN C system in response to frequent GPS jamming by North Korea. Similarly Saudi Arabia continues to maintain and upgrade their LORAN C stations due to issues with Iran. Ships in the black sea have reported positional errors of 20 miles or more, and visitors to Red Square in Moscow have had their GPS tell them they were at the Moscow Airport. Not to be lost in this conversation is that the USSR still operates and uses their LORAN C system.
The thing is, the bad guys do not need to take out our satellites, or spoof our GPS system, all they need to do is deny the signal or introduce a timing error to cripple our infrastructure. Most people do not realize the degree to which GPS timing has penetrated our critical systems, the markets, banking, utilities, transportation, broadcast, radio communications, phone, internet and just about any other system you care to name are dependent upon GPS timing to operate properly. Any interruption could as PO1 Chip Nagel so eloquently put it leave us with stone axes. GPS is a single system, which is to say it is a single point of failure. We would not go out on a ship, up in a plane, or into battle with no backup, no plan B, but right now we are living in a society with no plan B. I just hope hey rectify that before it is too late.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google