Posted on Jul 14, 2016
$15 an hour wage, what does it do to recruiting, retention, the pay chart, and other areas of our lives?
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So a PV1 under two years makes $1566.90/16= $9.79 for a 160 hr work month. Lets take $15x160 hr a month= $2400. Looking at the pay chart an E4 with 4 years is the earliest chance to get close is to make $2382 after four years.
Cuts in government spending and messing with the GI Bill, retirement, and other entitlements (BAH,TA, etc). We also don't work 160 hr/m & put our health at risk. Thoughts?
Cuts in government spending and messing with the GI Bill, retirement, and other entitlements (BAH,TA, etc). We also don't work 160 hr/m & put our health at risk. Thoughts?
Posted in these groups: 
Military Pay
Entitlements
Military Pay Entitlements
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 18
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In my opinion , the wage increase will force more young workers to consider the military for a leg up. My reasoning is that the $15 wage will reduce jobs as more automation is placed in service and the only viable option will be the military.
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MSgt John McGowan
SSgt. I will agree with you. Job will be hard to find and the 15 per hour will be slow coming to small towns like I live in. Heck $15 per hour is good here for full time jobs at some of the places. High wages just isn't here in any large numbers. It would have to be a federal requirment and then our few fast food joints wold probably close.
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SFC (Join to see)
So I didn't want too many rabbit holes but think of this. The GS pay scale is closer to the civilian pay market. HR compares knowledge, skills, and attributes of the civilian market to the GS tables through a union. Would you expect their pay to go up... I seem to notice that they only go up in steps and in levels, that employees wont go down and jobs don't change until they are done away with after the employees moves after many many years. IF a spike happens in those jobs and the DOD budget goes way up, could we be stuck with a pay table where the PV1 <2 yrs making less then minimum wage is now their an E5 <10 yrs just getting over that hump.
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SFC (Join to see)
IF a spike happens in those jobs and the DOD budget goes way up, could we be stuck with a pay table where the PVT less then 2 yrs making less then minimum wage is now their an SGT less then 10 yrs just getting over that hump.
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You aren't taking into account that PV1s (and essentially everyone who lives in the barracks) do not have to pay for rent, utilities, food, and medical care.
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SFC (Join to see)
Yes I'm also taking into account that more new recruits asked for more money in their pockets over anything else according to a Army and Navy Times poll. Also that no overtime is paid, you typically don't live close to family or areas you know, that you only have about 100- 300 sq ft authorized and typically have to share that with someone. Medical care is partial picked up by civilian employers and all work related injuries are picked up by the employer, also you can sue those employers for damaging and dangerous work. There are many things in play. I'm focused on dollar for dollar work with this topic.
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SFC J Fullerton
SFC (Join to see) - I believe that poll to be correct for new Soldiers already in, who are stuck there and then pay becomes important to them. But I seriously don't think it does anything for the propensity to enlist in the first place. You are either interested in the military or you are not.
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PO1 (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - To be fair, you didn't put a link to a poll or anything. You just posed the question.
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My first thought is that one should not serve for the sole purpose of making money. There are many benefits to take into consideration that civilians and federal employees more often than not have to pay for, Health and Dental, Life Insurance to name a few-these alone can equate to $1000.00 a moth. There are no extraneous bills associated with any form of surgery Big number. Then there is housing and chow-grade dependent, free none-the-less, $800.00 to $2000.00+. The next thing to discuss is that Service members do not have to count on sick leave, for sick-call, bedrest etc. Convalescing in not counted against leave. You get 30 days of regular leave from the get go, most employers start at two weeks. Not to mention your work clothes are paid for. There is more but I do not wish to drone on.
While I admit that many of the benefits I experienced are different for you, they still far and away exceed that of the private sector. As I said up front, you should be serving out of a sense of Duty and Honor, not the money, but it is not all bad.
While I admit that many of the benefits I experienced are different for you, they still far and away exceed that of the private sector. As I said up front, you should be serving out of a sense of Duty and Honor, not the money, but it is not all bad.
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Well, how about this for a silver lining, SFC (Join to see)? When I enlisted on 9AUG69, an E-1 with less than four months service earned $115.20 per month!
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SFC (Join to see)
yes wages then sucked and I believe family medical was not included then? It was an still in the time of the draft... My mother was nine years old... Times have changed and are continuing to change.
You work with money, if the civilian market goes to $15 an hour and defense spending is continually cut... what do you think will happen to the Soldier in the ranks?
You work with money, if the civilian market goes to $15 an hour and defense spending is continually cut... what do you think will happen to the Soldier in the ranks?
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LTC Stephen C.
SFC (Join to see), I think that MAJ Carl Ballinger and Capt Seid Waddell have the right idea, as it pertains to the complete compensation package. That being said, the soldier in the ranks will be just fine.
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Figure in medical, housing, food, clothing, etc. and the comparison will look much better.
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SFC (Join to see)
some people never need a doctors appointment, but typically a SM will need appointments with the related work. Other industries offer you clothing and medical... housing is hit or miss, as if any company drags you hundreds to thousands of miles away they are going to pay you TDY or for housing. You can get a job in your neighborhood or join the service and eat goat on the side of a mountain in South Sudan.
True if we add in all the perks the job is good versus the civilian market now. If we it goes to $15 an hour everywhere what does that do in rural area Montana, what does it do to the service?
True if we add in all the perks the job is good versus the civilian market now. If we it goes to $15 an hour everywhere what does that do in rural area Montana, what does it do to the service?
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Capt Seid Waddell
SFC (Join to see), not many minimum wage jobs come with benefits. These are starter jobs typically for teenagers living at home, not something that anyone could raise a family on.
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Bear in mind, enlisting is meant to be the equivalent of unskilled, unpaid labor. There are several studies that take into account and attempt to assign monetary value to intangible benefits of enlistment, such as education benefits, healthcare, and other "safety nets" and fringe benefits servicemembers enjoy.
Granted, a lot of these studies are funded in-house by the military, so it's hard to assess their accuracy given that bias, but even assuming they're vastly overestimating the value of our benefits, junior enlisted soldiers are extremely well-compensated for their time.
At no point in my nearly 7 years as a junior enlisted have I ever felt like I wasn't being paid enough for what I do. The majority of E-4 and below who I find complain about their "low" wages have very little to no idea of what equivalent civilian compensation looks like. Using my own life as an easy example, I gross about $1500 per paycheck, stationed in Hawaii. That's $3000 gross per month AFTER my BAH is removed for rent. If you want to INCLUDE my BAH, that's an extra $3000. So assuming a rough gross income of $6000 per month, that's $200 per day, and assuming a 10-hour work day, $20 per hour. On top of that, I don't pay health insurance, half of the things I buy are tax-free or competitively priced through the PX/Commissary, I have $80,000 worth of tuition that I can bank PLUS $4500 per semester that I can use. And to top it off, I have access to one of the best support systems in the developed world should I run into any kind of crisis, be it financial, emotional, or otherwise.
Granted, the asking cost is high: I've deployed twice, and spent almost two years away from my family. I'm geographically flexible based on the needs of the Army. I'm subject to an additional set of rules and regulations and can be punished if I don't follow them. But in my mind, having had only a margin of college-level education and only a few years of real-world work experience before I enlisted, I got a pretty solid deal.
Remember, the military is a career for some, a foundation for others. I stuck around because I enjoyed my job, and the people I worked with. If the military wasn't wage-competitive with the civilian sector, soldiers wouldn't ever re-enlist--free market economics drive military compensation as well as civilian.
Granted, a lot of these studies are funded in-house by the military, so it's hard to assess their accuracy given that bias, but even assuming they're vastly overestimating the value of our benefits, junior enlisted soldiers are extremely well-compensated for their time.
At no point in my nearly 7 years as a junior enlisted have I ever felt like I wasn't being paid enough for what I do. The majority of E-4 and below who I find complain about their "low" wages have very little to no idea of what equivalent civilian compensation looks like. Using my own life as an easy example, I gross about $1500 per paycheck, stationed in Hawaii. That's $3000 gross per month AFTER my BAH is removed for rent. If you want to INCLUDE my BAH, that's an extra $3000. So assuming a rough gross income of $6000 per month, that's $200 per day, and assuming a 10-hour work day, $20 per hour. On top of that, I don't pay health insurance, half of the things I buy are tax-free or competitively priced through the PX/Commissary, I have $80,000 worth of tuition that I can bank PLUS $4500 per semester that I can use. And to top it off, I have access to one of the best support systems in the developed world should I run into any kind of crisis, be it financial, emotional, or otherwise.
Granted, the asking cost is high: I've deployed twice, and spent almost two years away from my family. I'm geographically flexible based on the needs of the Army. I'm subject to an additional set of rules and regulations and can be punished if I don't follow them. But in my mind, having had only a margin of college-level education and only a few years of real-world work experience before I enlisted, I got a pretty solid deal.
Remember, the military is a career for some, a foundation for others. I stuck around because I enjoyed my job, and the people I worked with. If the military wasn't wage-competitive with the civilian sector, soldiers wouldn't ever re-enlist--free market economics drive military compensation as well as civilian.
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SFC (Join to see)
To stay on point I'm looking at two areas of this thought. First your a 68W so you carry a trained skill that the Army pays you for. You have to maintain a certification to keep your job, if not, you're gone. The second is your last sentence, right now we are competitive, if the free market goes to $15 an hour... will we be? The Army keeps talking about bringing in talent and keeping talent... talent management is a hot topic for the Army now, as it has been for the Marines a long time.
At 18 years ... I make 6000 gross with all entitlements, enjoy HI.
At 18 years ... I make 6000 gross with all entitlements, enjoy HI.
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SPC (Join to see)
To your first point, SFC Jolly, you are correct--I am a 68W with a trained skill. However, the Army is the one who footed the bill for said training, therefore I am actually the beneficiary of it. The average cost to obtain and maintain EMT licensure is significant, to the tune of several thousand dollars on average--all of which the Army foots the bill for. And although I am skilled labor, any E-4 with my time in service and duty station makes the same amount that I do, whether they're a highly-trained X-ray technician (1-year AIT + certification) or an 11B.
You are correct in pointing out that talent management is, indeed a hot-button issue. But the Army's strategy to maintaining talent is by incentivizing retirement, rather than monthly salary. Whereas most civilian positions equivalent to senior leadership roles in the military compensate based on current performance, the Army approaches retention in terms of long-term benefits (health care and salary after retirement). In essence, the fiscal strategy to Army talent retention is to frontload the asking price of keeping you (by asking you to enlist or contractually obligate yourself) while offsetting the long-term cost to the Army (by offering you retirement benefits rather than a competitive salary).
I think you're right on the money--senior leader compensation in the military is nowhere NEAR the civilian workplace equivalent in terms of monthly salary. However, civilian retirement compensation often comes at a high asking price of 30-40 years' investment with a company, or a personal financial stake (IRA, 401(k), etc.) Army retirement compensation is comparatively lower in cost, at 20 years with no personal financial investment required.
You are correct in pointing out that talent management is, indeed a hot-button issue. But the Army's strategy to maintaining talent is by incentivizing retirement, rather than monthly salary. Whereas most civilian positions equivalent to senior leadership roles in the military compensate based on current performance, the Army approaches retention in terms of long-term benefits (health care and salary after retirement). In essence, the fiscal strategy to Army talent retention is to frontload the asking price of keeping you (by asking you to enlist or contractually obligate yourself) while offsetting the long-term cost to the Army (by offering you retirement benefits rather than a competitive salary).
I think you're right on the money--senior leader compensation in the military is nowhere NEAR the civilian workplace equivalent in terms of monthly salary. However, civilian retirement compensation often comes at a high asking price of 30-40 years' investment with a company, or a personal financial stake (IRA, 401(k), etc.) Army retirement compensation is comparatively lower in cost, at 20 years with no personal financial investment required.
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SFC (Join to see)
How about you showed up on the Army's door they said hey! we want you as a medic, you said sure... not to many people show up and say I want to be a medic, people just seem to get pulled in the recruiter's door. You got the training like that, something at a community college that cost around 2200-3400 for the program. Often you can get communities in need to pay for it or FIFSA.
Retirement has changed and it benefits the system for the most part. Don't expect everyone to be able to stick around for it, as RCP dates are strictly enforced now and are being monitored closer by HRC. Health care at retirement is something we pay for and cost is going up on all members in DEERS.
I'm not saying please feel my pockets with gobs of money, but I want to keep quality people in uniform and insure their risk to reward is worth it.
The percentage of people using their benefits is so small and the hospital needs you to make appointments and use their devices or that money from the government is going to go away, then they have a bigger issue.
The 30-40 years they invest in a company is typically within one state with maybe a move to a different part of town or perhaps they ask can you please go here for six months and do this.
Just in my career I've been shot at hundreds of times by big guns and a lot of other shit most people wouldn't put themselves in, nor would a civilian company.
Look at what DoD has to pay companies to pay civilian contractors to dispatch gators on Bagram in Afghanistan ($93,000 a year with two vacations). If you're a PSD medic for a low level government official, you work 90 days off 30 days for three rotations and your contract can be worth 200K, while most 11Bs are eating half an MRE after cleaning 100 homes in Fullijah make 22K-28K for the whole deployment.
Sure if he gets hit or a lil fucked up... he's got medical then they knock him from rolls, so he gets a small check from the VA and he can get looked for his related illness or injury in a broke system. No retirement for that guy... just hopefully some savings and perhaps a small lump sum from his life insurance payout.
Retirement has changed and it benefits the system for the most part. Don't expect everyone to be able to stick around for it, as RCP dates are strictly enforced now and are being monitored closer by HRC. Health care at retirement is something we pay for and cost is going up on all members in DEERS.
I'm not saying please feel my pockets with gobs of money, but I want to keep quality people in uniform and insure their risk to reward is worth it.
The percentage of people using their benefits is so small and the hospital needs you to make appointments and use their devices or that money from the government is going to go away, then they have a bigger issue.
The 30-40 years they invest in a company is typically within one state with maybe a move to a different part of town or perhaps they ask can you please go here for six months and do this.
Just in my career I've been shot at hundreds of times by big guns and a lot of other shit most people wouldn't put themselves in, nor would a civilian company.
Look at what DoD has to pay companies to pay civilian contractors to dispatch gators on Bagram in Afghanistan ($93,000 a year with two vacations). If you're a PSD medic for a low level government official, you work 90 days off 30 days for three rotations and your contract can be worth 200K, while most 11Bs are eating half an MRE after cleaning 100 homes in Fullijah make 22K-28K for the whole deployment.
Sure if he gets hit or a lil fucked up... he's got medical then they knock him from rolls, so he gets a small check from the VA and he can get looked for his related illness or injury in a broke system. No retirement for that guy... just hopefully some savings and perhaps a small lump sum from his life insurance payout.
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See I always divided the wages by a 24 hour period because we are on Active Duty 24/7. Sure we get to go home after our shift, but anyone who has served knows what's it like to get a call to come in at 2 in the morning because shit hit the fan, or staying up all night because someone said something to put themselves on suicide watch, or even when your junior troops get lost or in trouble in the middle of the night and you have to go help them.
That's why I always divide our pay by 24 hours a day 7 days a week... because even when we're on liberty, the chevrons never come off and we're still on call.
That's why I always divide our pay by 24 hours a day 7 days a week... because even when we're on liberty, the chevrons never come off and we're still on call.
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Lets look at what a PVT1 really makes: Monthly Pay $1,566.90, Annual Clothing allowance $327.00 ( you don't get that on the outside), you live in the barracks if you rented a place it would run more that 700+ and up, so BAQ is 531.60 ( did not include differential) and you also get three FREE MEALS a day, if you had to pay that in the chow hall it would cost you another $368.29. So not including medical and dental you make approximately $2,793.79 a month time 12 = $33,525.48 a year before taxes. there are 2,080 hours you can work, you have 9 holidays and 30 days of leave. Subtract 72 hours for holidays and 22 work days of leave another 176 hours. 2,082-72-176 leaves you with 1,832 hours you actually work. But to compare apples to apples we will use, 2,080. $33,525.48/2,080= $16.12 an hour for a PVT1 with no dependents. If you add in 150 a month for dental and somewhere around 500 for medical it goes way up.
Now for a civilian making $15x2,080 = $31,200.
Bottom Line is that The PVT1 comes out on top.
Don't complain about going somewhere on a minutes notice, that what you signed on the dotted line for. Not $$$, Not college, but defending the United States. Semper Fi.
Now for a civilian making $15x2,080 = $31,200.
Bottom Line is that The PVT1 comes out on top.
Don't complain about going somewhere on a minutes notice, that what you signed on the dotted line for. Not $$$, Not college, but defending the United States. Semper Fi.
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SFC (Join to see)
I know why people signed up and I know why I've done 18 years and 4 combat tours and Korea. I'm simply asking what happens to the force if the private sector goes to $15 an hour. Even the commissary compares their prices to the private sector and stays competitive to what is in the local area. Additionally medical has to be included, as we have no right to sue the government over injuries unlike a private sector, the government doesn't do workman's comp. It would be stupid for them to stop offering medical and dental with the cost of facilities and equipment they have already purchased and the amount it brings in on tax payer dollars.
So no I don't factor those in as it dilutes the actually question of what happens to the force if the private sector goes to $15.
I dont think it will happen at all and it will be a state driven thing. I believe that it's campaign bullshit and the national level will never be able to pull that off, that states have to be the driving force. I think it's a way to attract people that feel over entitled and under appreciated, for some unknown reason.
The simply question is, where does the force go if the private sector national minimum wage is $15 an hour? I don't think DoD can compete to retain people and I dont think the DoD budget will support anything close to a match without losing a large amount of benefits or having to pay more into the system.
So no I don't factor those in as it dilutes the actually question of what happens to the force if the private sector goes to $15.
I dont think it will happen at all and it will be a state driven thing. I believe that it's campaign bullshit and the national level will never be able to pull that off, that states have to be the driving force. I think it's a way to attract people that feel over entitled and under appreciated, for some unknown reason.
The simply question is, where does the force go if the private sector national minimum wage is $15 an hour? I don't think DoD can compete to retain people and I dont think the DoD budget will support anything close to a match without losing a large amount of benefits or having to pay more into the system.
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I WOULD THINK THAT IT SHOUDN'T HAVE A IMPACT ON THEM IF THEY ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THE MILTARY.
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