Posted on Aug 7, 2015
SSG Warren Swan
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Before anyone goes off on this, I AM a supporter of the police. Biased as I am towards them being a former MP, I have to ask has the Thin Blue Line become more of a broad stroke with impunity? Has policing in America become more like the policing of the wild, wild west? Or has the internet and social media allowed the masses to see in real time what has been going on for decades?
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
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SSG Warren Swan - It certainly appears, from the information provided, that the police officer used excessive force/deadly force when it was not warranted. Again, I caveat that with "from the information provided". There will be a complete investigation and appropriate action taken as a result of the investigation.

While this incident and several others that have been in the media are unfortunate, they still represent a very small percentage of officer contacts with the population, the vast majority of which are very professionally handled, even the ones where deadly force is required. Every profession has its bad apples and the police are no exception. In addition, police are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else.

Are the police becoming too powerful? No -- the criminals are. The lawlessness displayed and the disrespect for the police, supported by a "progressive"/permissive society, spurred on by race baiters and liberals, to include our current Administration, is the catalyst for the increasing number of issues we have been seeing.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
Thanks Sir, but wouldn't you say that for the police to get respect they have to give it, and it shouldn't based upon economic status, class, or race? Living in the projects will get a much different response than a suburb for the exact same crime. In regards to the criminal aspect, I'd argue that the criminals aren't more powerful, but that the laws in some cases are too lax. Are we a victim of our own successes in regards to freedom?
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
COL Jean (John) F. B.
9 y
SSG Warren Swan - Yes, that is true, however, the truth of that matter is that the police, more and more, are not getting the respect they deserve. More and more, they endure profanity and abuse from the population they serve, particularly in the projects and areas like that. You reap what you sow.

I always told my MPs that I expected them to be professional and courteous at all times. However, I caveated that with guidance that, if the person they are dealing with becomes an asshole, they are authorized to become a bigger asshole (to a point).

The criminals are more powerful in that they feel more empowered by the moral decline and lawlessness we are experiencing in this country, and the propensity for the media to take the sides of anybody who has a confrontation with the police, regardless of the situation.

If people would simply follow the lawful instructions/orders of the police, most of the issues would be non-existent. It has become a very dangerous game/pastime to confront the police, particularly when the cameras are present. As such, I am surprised the incidents, such as the ones in the article, are not more common than they are.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
COL Jean (John) F. B. - "I always told my MPs that I expected them to be professional and courteous at all times. However, I caveated that with guidance that, if the person they are dealing with becomes an asshole, they are authorized to become a bigger asshole (to a point)"...I've also heard that when I was a MP.

Not fully sold Sir, on your third paragraph. I do agree we are seeing a moral decline, but is it because of the advances in technology and the ability to see things more readily than in the past (what would've happened with Rodney King had there been social media back then), and when it comes to the media, anyone with half a brain should know there are three versions; yours, mine, and the actual truth. But the fourth version "their" truth will be played in the media.
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
COL Jean (John) F. B.
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SSG Warren Swan - You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I will stick to mine, with no caveats.
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CMSgt James Nolan
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SSG Warren Swan As a long time LEO (started in 85, so I think that qualifies), and I now work in one of the most violent cities in the Nation, I can tell you that society has been slowly degrading it's support for law enforcement to a point where there are entire areas that HATE anything that the Police do, which is absurd. Occasionally (and if you really have any understanding of law enforcement, the percentage is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage) there are bad uses of force by law enforcement. And hopefully, those bad uses of force (which you still have to be damned careful to examine-because in the instant a police officer hesitates, he is dead) are properly investigated, and if criminality uncovered, then disciplinary procedures and/or prosecution when warranted. The problem (and this has been covered to the same level as should a 2nd Lt salute a 1st Lt) is that in modern American society, it is now considered sport to try and catch police encounters on video. The problem with that is that the entire (and I mean the entire encounter) tends not to be filmed, just the highlights. All due respect to our Military Police (and I am a currently serving Security Forces member, which is the Air Force Cops), if you are not actively working the "street", and by that I do not mean Base Housing, your view is narrow. Go work in a major city and see the crime and activity that is going on, and prepare to have your mind blown.

Before I start making assumptions on cases that the media puts on blast, I try and look at the situation in the entirety (which I, just like everyone else, will have a hard time doing, as we were not there). Add to it that witnesses (who were not there) will come forward and lie in an attempt to get the Police in trouble, because they hate the Police, and you have now complicated an already complicated situation.

Cops today have an incredibly hard job, compounded by being tried in the media before the incidents are fully investigated. Whenever excessive force is used, it is tragic-and that does not matter if against ANY particular race, excessive force is wrong. Keep in mind though, when making judgements about the "actions/reactions" of law enforcement officers-they are always behind the reactionary gap, and if they react wrongly, they die. They absolutely have a right to defend themselves up to and including the use of deadly force. The need to use such force must be viewed-not through the eyes of everyone else-but through the eyes of the officer involved-it is his/her perception of a situation that dictates what force to respond with. And to be clear, not too many people have violent encounters with Police when they do as they are asked-and then fight the action in court. Oftentimes the non-compliance of the "offender" began long ago.

In conclusion:
1. No, I do not think that law enforcement is becoming too powerful. I actually tend to think that in the not to distant future, people are going to be in a world of hurt, because there will be more and more police who will not be proactive, because they will have learned from watching their co-workers get dragged through the mud, that career wise, perhaps it would be better to simply try and not do anything that could potentially lead to an encounter, maybe the robbers, rapists and murderers will simply turn themselves in to face charges. If that happens (not being proactive), and I sure as hell hope that it does not, you will see crime rates skyrocket, because criminals, who by the way, do not give a flying crap about anyone, and who are already emboldened, will really let loose.
2. Social media and the news, while showing incidents, do not show the entire incident-start to finish, and they also do not have the same knowledge (for good or bad, limited or extensive) that the officer had going into the situation. They broadcast whatever portion they obtained.

Are there bad cops-sadly, yes. Their career longevity tends to suck, because they do bad things, just like the bad guys. You simply do not see too many happily retired crooks, dealers, pimps etc.

Apologies for ranting a little, but...I do not feel that RallyPoint is the place for dragging the profession of law enforcement through the proverbial mud.
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SCPO Investigator
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I've posted the exact same sentiments myself. Society, in general, would need to walk A THOUSAND MILES in our moccasins to get even an understanding for what we do, what we endure, and what we survive every single 8-hour shift!!!
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CMSgt James Nolan
CMSgt James Nolan
9 y
SCPO (Join to see) You are spot on. SSG Warren Swan I do not mean to in any way be disparaging to the profession of Military Law Enforcement, the mission of Military Law Enforcement is absolutely essential-and like I said, I have been and continue to be serving in that capacity. I am simply stating that the two military/civilian are worlds apart in terms of what constitutes a "duty day". I am proud of what I have done, and I know that our MP/SP/MAs have had some truly horrific (not combat related) days, (been there and done that), but it simply does not equate to what goes on out on the "street" every day.

To the MP/SP/MAs still serving, never grow complacent, because truly, evil is looking to visit even the most peaceful bases, and you are the Defenders. And for those who have moved on, certainly the diligence of duty was key to the prevention of untold evils.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
CMSgt James Nolan - Senior, I understand what you were saying with your post and don't see it as a rant. And for most of it I agree with it.
As far as videotaping incidents, I think that is a good thing AS LONG as it doesn't interfere with the duties of the police. Most of the videos shown have shown that the folks filming were a decent distance away and not really protruding into the crime scene. I think bodycams are an awesome advance when used. Dash cams are too when used. We have the technology to make it harder for anyone to lie steal and cheat, but don't use it, or get upset when that ONE guy screws up and a civilian has it on his phone.
Cops have rights just like the civilians do, but that knowledge has to go both ways, and I see it as neither respecting the others in some cases (I've been really lucky), and there's the disconnect. I applaud those cops who stop and play with the kids (not enough of them), who stop and assist motorists (not enough of them either), or go to the playground and interact on foot with the locals (again not enough of them). Those are the ones that DON'T get enough press, enough videos taken of them, or enough awards and recognition. Those are the cops that are really doing their jobs above and beyond. It's bigger than writing tickets, going to court, arresting folks, and the mountains of paperwork associated with the first three. There's a lot of community policing, but not enough community policing with community outreach in some areas.
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CMSgt James Nolan
CMSgt James Nolan
9 y
SSG Warren Swan Appreciate that, because I was not trying to be argumentative. Things to consider: departments are undermanned and underfunded-so that complicates outreach. Cameras/data storage is very expensive-useful, but expensive, and there are a lot of issues-they only work when on: can the officers turn them off? If so, when do they turn them on? If they are not always on, you will always miss part of an incident. If they are never off, how can a police officer have any privacy (for example to talk with his/her spouse). People do often get in the way with cameras (I have seen it firsthand). Policing is a tough nut. People need to realize that there are good and bad, and the bad get weeded out. There is never an excuse to assault a police officer-that is what courts are for.If
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
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SSG Warren Swan One of many things that has made and will continue to make our country great is the ability to express your opinion. As a career LEO in and out of the military, I see the 1% of LEOs who are being accused of wrongdoing, overshadowing the favorable and positive actions of the majority of LEOs throughout our great Republic. That said, for officers who are convicted based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the punishment should be weighted based not only on the violation committed but also based on the trust violated. There are enhancement offenses throughout the criminal justice system, whether state or Federal. Create one for LEOs who commit crimes under the color of law.

Back to your original question, are the police in America becoming too powerful? No. In fact, because of hiring procedures, cultural stigmas, social pressure, and knee jerk reactions, the LEOs who have sworn to protect and serve are having their ability infringed upon, based on the negative press of the few as opposed to the positive press of the many. We must, first and foremost, police ourselves. Do I dislike body cameras, no. In fact, I welcome it, as one more piece of evidence to be used at prosecution and in protection of me when I am falsely accused. Much like in car video, there will be shocking video on both sides. Just for the sake of remembering, please watch the video pertaining to the murder of Nacogdoches County, Texas Constable Darrell Lunsford (one of the first uses of in car video) and South Carolina State Trooper Mark Coates. Both are tragic. For the most part, over 98%, LEOs place there own lives in jeopardy to protect the public. We don't ask for thanks, we do ask for respect.

The general public should examine all of the facts before making any conclusion. As a LEO I don't make arrests before probable cause is established and I don't expect convictions in cases where the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. LEOs deserve this consideration when accused of wrongdoing. Being tried and convicted in the media is not fair and is rarely based on fact.

Lets all just slow down, take a breath, and remember that without the thin Blue Line, there is anarchy. One other sad fact, you cannot remove the human factor from law enforcement or the general public, mistakes will be made.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
Thank you SFC and you are correct.
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Are the police in America becoming too powerful?
SCPO Investigator
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Edited 9 y ago
To this question, I would ask this question: have the criminals in America become much better armed, more calloused and indifferent towards human rights, human dignity, and human life, more aggressive - as in deadly - towards police? Have citizens become more disrespectful and interferring? The two duties of police anywhere in this country are to serve and protect the public. Police CANNOT do that job IF they are continually taking Second Place in an effort to placate certain segments of the public or kowtow to social pressures to "be nicer" in the face of mounting dangers. For thirty years, I was very nice to a public that was nice to me. When they weren't, I was firm. That poor, innocent victim of a 20-over speeding ticket often translated firm to mean rude. With bad guys, I only had a two rules: protect myself and others at all cost, and get those bad guys to jail as soon as possible and kept there as long as the courts allowed. Ninety-nine percent of over One Million law enforcement officers in this country today live and work by those same rules. That is not being too powerful. It is being safe and properly doing the job at the same time. During any given eight-hour shift, the job of a "Copper" is still a Wallenda High Wire act of Biblical proportions.
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CMSgt James Nolan
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SSG John Jensen
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Craig Peterson recently retired from San Jose's finest and a Vietnam Vet had a Chiquita Banana sticker stuck to the butt of his pistol, when asked about it he would say that it was his banana clip.
We need alot more policemen like him who don't take themselves too seriously
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CMSgt James Nolan
CMSgt James Nolan
9 y
SSG John Jensen You have to maintain your sense of humor.
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CPL Rob N.
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Since you are retired a LE Officer Sgt David G Duchesneau, correct me if I am wrong, but most specialized training is created to combat a growing and/or persistent problem within the communities that already exists.

Anyone that watches the news today can tell you the crime today is not like it used to be. The types of crimes have escalated as well as the severity of the crimes. Police are out numbered and the workload is increasing mixed with social media and news outlets, it creates what we have today. I don't condone the use of excessive force by any means. It's not like cops didn't start shooting people a few years ago. These things have been going on for as long as there's been cops. Not all cops are "Bad Cops". A few bad apples will spoil the whole bunch.

My personal belief, the training that police cadets receive in an academy is minimal at best. It's much like military training, they can't train for every situation possible, it's not feasible! Something needs to be done to change the level and pertinence of the training that allows more modern day scenarios. More reliable support programs for officers that need help because of on the job injuries (mental/emotional/physical). There are many contributing factors like social media and news outlets taking stories and running them!
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PO1 Command Services
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SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" Law enforcement get such a bad rap due to the actions of those that misuse their power. Just like all jobs, eventually we all get a little jaded. However, with law enforcement (and even in the military) we do not have the luxury of having an "off day" because that "off day" can result in not only our career but peoples lives or our own. Sometimes society needs a visual reminder of the sacrifices that are made by the men and women we call neighbor, friend or loved one. This life is not for everyone. For every "bad cop" there are hundreds that are good. Unfortunately, it is the bad apples that everyone remembers.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/dan.dickey3/videos/ [login to see] 455553/?pnref=story
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PO1 Command Services
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SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" I think the biggest issue is that this is also based upon location, law enforcement in larger cities with higher crime rates live a very different existence than law enforcement in a small pony town (e.g. Chicago or LA vs. Hooks, TX). However, regardless of what community they serve they also have to make a split second decision that will affect them the rest of their lives. Now we have all met that one...the one that has something to prove or a chip on their shoulder. These are the really dangerous ones and the fact that the departments are allowing them to go unchecked, does need to change. But I can see how situations can escalate quickly, especially with all the violent unrest towards law enforcement lately (e.g. Baltimore riots, etc.).
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MSgt Squad Leader
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I didn't realize I did. My apologies.
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MSgt Squad Leader
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SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" - I'm reading on my "smarter than me" phone and apparently fat fingered trying to scroll.
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Sgt David G Duchesneau
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Edited 9 y ago
Are you kidding me right now? No, they are not. If anything, I think that the LE community are out there trying to protect themselves. It seems that everyone wants to argue and fight and resist the Police. What's up with that, anyway? Where is the respect?
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
I'm not kidding and like I said I support the police. But has that line gotten too broad, and the knowledge that you won't be prosecuted gotten them away from their primary mission? For respect to be given it has to be earned. And you don't get that just because you have a badge and a gun.
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Sgt David G Duchesneau
Sgt David G Duchesneau
9 y
First off, I am retired from LE after serving 20 years. All I can say is that in all professions, there are 10% that abuse their power and positions. It's everywhere, but I truly believe that the rest of LE, that 90%, are out there risking their lives for the public they serve. No one wants to see a cop until they need one. And you know what, if a Cop does screw up and breaks the Law, they can be prosecuted and I can tell you right now that I have arrested other Police Officers who have broken the Law and they have been prosecuted for their crimes. I could go on and on, but for this post, I think you get the idea?
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
Sgt David G Duchesneau - I do agree with you on the power part. And I don't mind seeing a cop at all. I've had great interactions with them when I was a MP and after I retired. I also know that yes a cop can be prosecuted, but that process is not as easy or clearcut as it would be for a regular civilian. It's well known that juries are very hesitant to indict or convict a police officer.
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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I think police have the correct amount of power that they need to perform their duties. I was a cop for a while in the past. But what is the issue is how they wield it. Many of them don't understand the implications of what they are doing. There are times when one can take it personal also. But it is a very difficult job. I think there should be a certain mental aptitude required to perform and stay current with it. It just seems like once you are a cop there is little required to maintain your level of proficiency.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
9 y
Sir, thanks for your input. I can't speak for the last sentence, but I do think there has to be a civilian police version of CTT to maintain basic skills past the qual range.
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
CPT (Join to see)
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SSG Warren Swan - I would say that not all departments are like this. I work in the security sector protecting some pretty important assets. I have an M4 and M9 at all times and train often as my job. This is all as a civilian. We are required to pass an annual exam that pertains to the knowledge. You get one retest. If you fail the retest you are fired. It keeps up on our toes. We also train on UoF often. I think some tweaking in their training could save a department a lot of time and money.
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SSG Warren Swan
SSG Warren Swan
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CPT (Join to see) - Damn Sir, that's ruthless on failing the second retest, but it will keep you on your toes for sure.
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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SSG Warren Swan - Yeah. We do lose a few people here and there but then again we really don't have many incidents and everyone has to stay up to date with the current training knowledge. I don't think it would be great for all Cops but maybe putting them back into a training status for a week would help.
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I respect any man or woman who puts their life on the line to defend another human being. But I have certainly noticed a transition in the police officer's role in America from protecting and serving the every day citizen by any means necessary to a role of protecting the state and local as well as federal political interest. The police officers should NOT be used to collect revenue for the court systems in this country. A police officer should be able to make his or her own judgement calls in every situation they are presented with without having to worry about losing their job over it. We made a huge mistake when we militarized the police.

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