Posted on Jul 6, 2017
SPC Anthony Schepis
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I just don't understand why some things in the Army haven't died out. We all know that there's some ridiculous regulations, customs, and courtesies. You would think that after many years of hard work the soldiers who make these positions would want to make some changes. Are they afraid to change them or do they whole heartedly agree with them?
Posted in these groups: Ar Army Regulations
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Responses: 11
SGT Christopher Hayden
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You lost me at this one: "Standing at attention and parade rest when addressing superiors."
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Sgt Dale Briggs
Sgt Dale Briggs
3 y
In boot we were issued Tropical Uniforms even though they were out, and I still had to pay for them.

Sorry meant for the CSM below.
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CSM Clifford Fargason
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You might want to look at history before saying leadership never makes changes. When I came in the service uniform had a winter and summer version. Change was made on a certain calendar date and it didn't matter where you were stationed, it might be 90 degrees out, but the calendar dictated wool. Your cotton fatigues would be starched, but they finally changed that to allowing permanent press uniforms. If you were a trooper in the southwest during the Indian Wars you would wear wool uniforms all year long.
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SPC Member
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>1 y
We had Garrison Caps and now we have Wool Berets.
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SGT Mathew Husen
SGT Mathew Husen
8 y
Never let us use the flaps on the patrol cap in the winter. Made too much sense, lol
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SFC Gary Fox
SFC Gary Fox
3 y
You're correct, we did have two different service uniforms. We also had two overcoats; a heavy wool one for winter, and a light green one for the warm weather months. Our class B uniform was khakis, the shirt for our A's were long-sleeved poplin. I remember our PT uniform was white t-shirt, fatigue pants, and combat boots. I went through a lot of uniform changes during my 30-year career. Sometimes they were too frequent.
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1SG Vet Technician
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Can you provide some examples of what you consider rediculous so that we can have an informed discussion?
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SPC Anthony Schepis
SPC Anthony Schepis
>1 y
SGM Erik Marquez, I could understand wearing the PT belt at night, no other time is necessary, only Army does these kind of policies. Drinking and walking is not unprofessional, this is another unnecessary reg. that was made up by a good idea fairy. When I say white glove inspection I mean they search through your stuff for drugs and other illegal stuff, not the standard see if it's clean inspection. They don't do that to on post housing married soldiers, that's government property too. If you say going to parade rest and attention creates respect, then why do soldiers still get in trouble for disrespect? It's not like everyone would lose respect if you took it away from the work place. UCMJ is what keeps soldiers in line. I also would hardly ever see NCOs and Officers do it to their superiors, just junior enlisted. I also never said the Army should "change for me." You have to ask yourself at some point why 80 percent plus of soldiers don't re-enlist. I'm a veteran also, but I would still like to go back in the Army one day.
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CPL(P) Intelligence Analyst
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Long sleeves protect you from the sun but also increase your risk of heatstroke if you're not hydrating properly (very difficult to do if water resupply is not readily and immediately available). Downgrading lets your body cool more effectively, the way it's supposed to. Think long sleeves protect you from the sun? Toss a blanket over your car's radiator and drive down the road on a hot day, see what happens. It's liquid physics. The evaporation of sweat into the air removes heat from the body. Trapping that sweat prevents it from evaporating and removing heat, and coats you in a layer of hot liquid that just makes the problem worse.

Yes, lightweight, light-colored fabric helps protect you from the sun, but it's not as cooling as downgrading, and tanning safely and effectively (which is a different process for everyone) is better than wearing long sleeves. Having spent a few summers on firing ranges up at Camp Butner, that was our collective experience and the heat conditions there are much worse than anything I've dealt with on Bragg.
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CPO Bill Penrod
CPO Bill Penrod
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Be very careful you start giving anything its gone never to return. The Navy went through this the past couple years and we did get three decisions reversed. Trust me its very difficult to gets the traditions back......................
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I have to agree with SGM on a lot of it, and he's right on some things not being AR but being Command Policy. Taking off your blouse, when we're working outside our CC and BC allowed it due to heat, once we were back inside you hydrate and put the blouse back on. Not saluting or going to parade rest, this is simple. If you're in an extended working environment such as an office or the motor pool your NCO's/Officers will usually instruct you to relax while conducting work but they don't have to (virtue of rank).
For example I have a Colonel in my office, upon his first time entering the office that day the room goes to attention, he then looks around to see who's in and then says relax and gives an order to not go to attention for the rest of the day (unless Stars walk through the door) the reason being is he will be in and out a lot and he doesn't want work to be interrupted (his rank his rule).

We have changed some things though, black socks for PT, headphones on closed track or the gym (command approval), rolled up sleeves are back (command approval).
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Are Top Brass afraid to make changes in Army regulations, customs and courtesies?
Lt Col Jim Coe
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Change is difficult. I worked for 6 year as a DAC trying to make changes that would improve efficiency and quality in the transportation business. It was hard. Even when we had Commanding General support, change was often completely and successfully resisted. Consequently, some senior officers and civilians choose the "if it works, don't fix it" approach to management. The key word is "works." Some processes and things work quite well and truly don't need fixing. Often things work because of exceptional human intelligence or brute force making them work. These things and processes should be fixed for the good of the Service Members and Civilians who use them and cost savings.

Another factor in preventing change is the civilian workforce and the constant rotation of military officers. DACs tend to stay in one location and one job for many years. Officers are assigned to command for 2 years and in a single location for no more than 4 years in general. If the DACs believe an officer is attempting to make changes detrimental to them or the organization, then they can slow-roll the change and outlast the officer. In this way "the way we've always done it" is perpetuated and new ideas are successfully resisted.

Finally, there's organizational inertia. Large organizations such as an Army Major Command or the entire Department of the Army, are more difficult to turn than the Navy's largest Aircraft Carrier. Once the organization is headed along a certain path toward a mission-vision-goal set, it is very difficult to steer in a different direction quickly. Changing the strategic direction of these large organizations takes time, patience, and persistence on the part of senior leadership. This is a very difficult task given the issues I discussed in the two paragraphs above; however, it isn't impossible. There's also the "tradition" factor. Some processes or actions have become Army tradition. Tradition takes on an almost religious aura in the Army. "241 years of tradition unhampered by progress" is a joke, but has a grain of truth. Traditions shape the way Soldiers and civilians do things and the way they establish and maintain relationships, professional and personal. Because of their near-sacred quality, traditions are very difficult to change or abolish. Most Senior Offices won't mess with a tradition unless it's clearly become injurious to the Service. Example: read RP posts on the Navy's attempt to change the enlisted rates and ranks system in 2016. Tradition won!
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SPC Member
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I guess ultimately the question is what should be changed?

I'll start, I don't like the black beret. It's wool, it's disrespectful to the Rangers & Airborne (in my opinion), it's Wool, the Garrison Cap was easier to clean (never wore one but I've been told), and it's Wool. I say we go back to the Garrison Cap, it was cloth and easier to maintain.

What's next?
SMA Dailey already covered black socks, rolled up sleeves, and headphones.

I'll go again, the ACU-OCP should have a third pen pocket like the ACU-UCP had. Also we should strengthen the shoulder zipper pockets, I've met two guys who broke theirs already.

AR Policy on wearing the Fleece Cap? It's 32 degree's right? I do believe the local commander has authority on altering that as need be (correct me if I'm wrong). It was 48 on a Field Drill I did and we were allowed to wear them, order was if you're cold don't be cold layer up.
- Side note, found out humvee's suck to sleep in and don't keep the cold out on that drill.
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SSG John Jensen
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Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.
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COL William Oseles
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Talking in a general broad brush does not allow one to address which regulations, customs or courtesies might be able to use some updates. Change for the sake of change is not a good idea. Need to address specifics.
I have seen it from both sides (E- to E-4 & O-1 to O6) and some things I did not understand in the begining I had a better understanding towards the end of my career.
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SSG Training Sergeant
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I dont see where any of our customs and courtesies are outdated or ridiculous. Its called heritage and tradition, not to mention respect. Regulations, pamphlets, policy, etc all change frequently based upon doctrine and operating environment.
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SPC Anthony Schepis
SPC Anthony Schepis
8 y
I would say its a little too much heritage and tradition used on a frequent basis. Regulation and policies tend to stay the same or change in a negative direction in my opinion.
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SSG Michael Burdiss
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Get rid of all that bs.
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SGT Eric Hawkins
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Specialist, you can pray to God that these customs and courtesies, of which you speak, get changed. Just remember, sometimes (like in this case) the answer is "no."
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