Posted on Apr 15, 2015
Are you/we surprised? U.S. Soldiers, Back in Iraq, Find Security Forces in Disrepair....
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Yes, we did the best we could to train and hand over security and policing to the GOI, within the timelines we were given... But did, we leave too soon?
Did you have confidence in the long term prognosis when you left?
Remember, before you comment/opine... We are still in Germany, Japan, Korea etc... Lasting change takes a long time to take root.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/world/middleeast/iraq-military-united-states-forces-camp-taji.html?_r=2
"Iraq’s army looked good on paper when the Americans left, after one of the biggest training missions carried out under wartime conditions. But after that, senior Iraqi officers began buying their own commissions, paying for them out of the supply, food and payroll money of their troops. Corruption ran up and down the ranks; desertion was rife."
Did you have confidence in the long term prognosis when you left?
Remember, before you comment/opine... We are still in Germany, Japan, Korea etc... Lasting change takes a long time to take root.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/world/middleeast/iraq-military-united-states-forces-camp-taji.html?_r=2
"Iraq’s army looked good on paper when the Americans left, after one of the biggest training missions carried out under wartime conditions. But after that, senior Iraqi officers began buying their own commissions, paying for them out of the supply, food and payroll money of their troops. Corruption ran up and down the ranks; desertion was rife."
Iraq
ISIS
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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I was on an Iraqi National Police Transition Team in 2006 and saw first hand living with the Iraqis that the mission of training and advising them would take upwards of 20 years minimum. The Iraqi officers "buying" their commissions was going on back then. "Ghost" Soliders/Policemen on the payroll was SOP. Maintenance was only conducted after the truck/vehicle broke down.
Unlike Germany, Korea, and Japan I don't believe the Iraq/Afghanistan culture is capable of "righting" itself in a form of a stabilized civilization. I really don't believe any Islam culture is capable of doing it themselves. You could point to the U.A.E., Qatar, Saudi Arabia and say that those countries are doing well but, those countries are propelled by Third Country Nationals that are treated like slaves, there are more TCNs in those countries than indigenous people, plus they have an incredible amount of money.
We definitely left Iraq too early, we put too much blood, money, and resources into the country to not remain until the mission (whatever that was) was complete. I am currently in Afghanistan and although we are maintaining the troop numbers throughout the year, drawdown is still the main focus. We are making the same mistake here that we did in Iraq.
If we leave we need to just stay gone and not come back. If we are staying we need to stay and see it through, however long it takes.
Unlike Germany, Korea, and Japan I don't believe the Iraq/Afghanistan culture is capable of "righting" itself in a form of a stabilized civilization. I really don't believe any Islam culture is capable of doing it themselves. You could point to the U.A.E., Qatar, Saudi Arabia and say that those countries are doing well but, those countries are propelled by Third Country Nationals that are treated like slaves, there are more TCNs in those countries than indigenous people, plus they have an incredible amount of money.
We definitely left Iraq too early, we put too much blood, money, and resources into the country to not remain until the mission (whatever that was) was complete. I am currently in Afghanistan and although we are maintaining the troop numbers throughout the year, drawdown is still the main focus. We are making the same mistake here that we did in Iraq.
If we leave we need to just stay gone and not come back. If we are staying we need to stay and see it through, however long it takes.
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COL Charles Williams
Hooah CSM (Join to see). That was my world too.... Police Chief, Prison Warden by Day, Insurgent by night....
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Iraqis are not Americans.
Iraqi Soldiers are not American Soldiers.
You can put lipstick and pearls on a pig....
This is not to say the Iraqis are bad people. They aren't. But they just don't have the same (for lack of better word) background we do.
Expecting them to go from where they were to where we are, was an unreasonable mission. When we "liberated them" we obligated ourselves to their protection for generations. Not years, not decades, but generations.
Edit: word
Iraqi Soldiers are not American Soldiers.
You can put lipstick and pearls on a pig....
This is not to say the Iraqis are bad people. They aren't. But they just don't have the same (for lack of better word) background we do.
Expecting them to go from where they were to where we are, was an unreasonable mission. When we "liberated them" we obligated ourselves to their protection for generations. Not years, not decades, but generations.
Edit: word
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LTC Paul Labrador Not at all! There's a huge difference between "They're Arabs" and "They're not Americans" however. We're the best equipped and trained fighting force in the world, with decades of experience behind us. We just have a huge history of Warfare.
I'm not saying they aren't capable, just you have to "develop that capability" aka "nation building." The Japan/Germany method, but without the Conquer model. There needed to be a happy medium between this "failure" and full scale occupation, if that makes sense.
As you implied, "If you cut off a chickens head.. it's going to flail" we did that when we knocked out Saddam. He had taken out all other threats to himself, so we need at least 10~ years before an Iraqi leader can rise to control the country. We can support, we can assist, but we can't be the controlling agent.
I'm not saying they aren't capable, just you have to "develop that capability" aka "nation building." The Japan/Germany method, but without the Conquer model. There needed to be a happy medium between this "failure" and full scale occupation, if that makes sense.
As you implied, "If you cut off a chickens head.. it's going to flail" we did that when we knocked out Saddam. He had taken out all other threats to himself, so we need at least 10~ years before an Iraqi leader can rise to control the country. We can support, we can assist, but we can't be the controlling agent.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Absolutley. Incidentally, I think maybe the Iraqis wanted the "conquerer model"...at least initially. Where we lost a lot of good will among the general populace was when we failed "to make the trains run on time" (so to speak) because we were too hands off intially. Good discussion!
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LTC Paul Labrador For lack of a better word, it would have solved it with the "Machismo" model. "We have more money, and Guns. We're in Charge." It likely would have sped up the rebuild & turnover process by a good 5-10 years.
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Not even a little bit sir. I left Iraq the day before they closed the last COB down. I thought we left too early then and I still think so now. For the amount of time, money, and lives we invested we sure seemed willing to wash our hands of the whole affair. I understand the economic concept of sunk resources, but Iraq was not ready to stand on it's own. Sometimes I wonder if that part of the world is capable of being ruled by anything other than a cruel dictatorship.
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