Posted on Jun 13, 2022
As a squad leader, shall I push back on something that I “feel” is wrong to the leadership?
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Hi,
I am new squad leader in the army reserves..
So, this week, the leadership asked few folks to finish some paperwork(this was not a drill week) and they have a deadline to make it happen.
One of a very good member of my squad has his laptop broken and hence his cac wasn’t setup.
The leadership asked someone who can help him but no one was available at the moment.
Granted this was like a 10 min thing.
Now, I have been asked to counsel the SM.
I feel like, army should provide laptop and all if they expect SM to do all this at home. If the laptop is broken, then it’s not cheap to get it asap.
Not to mention, we waste a lot of time during BA.
So shall I just follow the orders or push back or something?
I am new squad leader in the army reserves..
So, this week, the leadership asked few folks to finish some paperwork(this was not a drill week) and they have a deadline to make it happen.
One of a very good member of my squad has his laptop broken and hence his cac wasn’t setup.
The leadership asked someone who can help him but no one was available at the moment.
Granted this was like a 10 min thing.
Now, I have been asked to counsel the SM.
I feel like, army should provide laptop and all if they expect SM to do all this at home. If the laptop is broken, then it’s not cheap to get it asap.
Not to mention, we waste a lot of time during BA.
So shall I just follow the orders or push back or something?
Posted in these groups: 
Squad Leader
Counseling
Squad Leader Counseling
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
Hooooo doggie. You've just experienced what everyone in a leadership spot in the Reserves faces. Here's the thing. Could you counsel your Soldier? Sure. Is it practical? Not really. Especially when elements were outside of your control and that of your Soldier. The conundrum is that your Leadership have deadlines to meet but outside of being on orders nor on BTA weekend, there isn't really anything administratively that can be done to your Soldier.
You speak of the Army Reserves providing government laptops to folks. The Reserves used to do that. But then some knuckleheads ruined it for everyone else. Now, it's just the unit Leadership that is given them.
Now, can you push back? Sure, you can. You can push back tactfully by stating that you did the counseling (and actually do it), and also tactfully remind your next level leadership that outside of BTA and/or not on orders, there is no real obligation/requirement. Because, unless the unit is going to pay the Soldiers for completing the task(s) outside of BTA, then this falls under the realm of indentured servitude...which is illegal. If the unit will submit a 1380 for pay....sure, then there is the incentive to get it done. If they won't submit a 1380 for pay...then illegal.
What I recommend is that in your counseling, in the Plan of Action section, if the Soldier has additional paperwork to do that requires a computer and CAC access, then they should go to the Reserve Center (if close by) or a NG Armory (if close by) or perhaps to visit a Recruiting Office to see if one of their computers can be used. If none of the COAs can be achieved, and/or the unit is not willing to pay to complete tasks outside of BTA...again, there is no obligation nor incentive for the Soldier to complete the tasks.
You speak of the Army Reserves providing government laptops to folks. The Reserves used to do that. But then some knuckleheads ruined it for everyone else. Now, it's just the unit Leadership that is given them.
Now, can you push back? Sure, you can. You can push back tactfully by stating that you did the counseling (and actually do it), and also tactfully remind your next level leadership that outside of BTA and/or not on orders, there is no real obligation/requirement. Because, unless the unit is going to pay the Soldiers for completing the task(s) outside of BTA, then this falls under the realm of indentured servitude...which is illegal. If the unit will submit a 1380 for pay....sure, then there is the incentive to get it done. If they won't submit a 1380 for pay...then illegal.
What I recommend is that in your counseling, in the Plan of Action section, if the Soldier has additional paperwork to do that requires a computer and CAC access, then they should go to the Reserve Center (if close by) or a NG Armory (if close by) or perhaps to visit a Recruiting Office to see if one of their computers can be used. If none of the COAs can be achieved, and/or the unit is not willing to pay to complete tasks outside of BTA...again, there is no obligation nor incentive for the Soldier to complete the tasks.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
HOLY CHIT......Your Military Sure Is Different From The One I Served In.
Any Moment Now, I'm Expecting To See Guys Coming Out & Dancing In Pink Tutu's With Matching Shoes & Head Bands,
What's All This BS About...? Check Here, Look There, Get Permission From, Have You Considered Doing....
DAMN Guys DO Something,
This Ain't "The Miss Manners Program" Of Pleasing The Pope !!'
MOVE !!
Any Moment Now, I'm Expecting To See Guys Coming Out & Dancing In Pink Tutu's With Matching Shoes & Head Bands,
What's All This BS About...? Check Here, Look There, Get Permission From, Have You Considered Doing....
DAMN Guys DO Something,
This Ain't "The Miss Manners Program" Of Pleasing The Pope !!'
MOVE !!
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Good afternoon MSG (Join to see). Excellent response, and I fully concur. Most of the time reserve units don't like to deal with 1380s.
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SGT Ruben Lozada
I recall when I used to be in the Reserves and when it came down to use a computer to get training done there was always a wait. I would either wait until after drill weekend was over or attempt to do the training at home.
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A counseling is just a written record of a conversation. I don't know why people treat them like they're punishments.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
I knew two 2LTs in Germany that probably had a stack of counseling statements at least a half inch to an inch. I retired last July as a MAJ and the other is a LTC. Made me a better RN.
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SGT (Join to see)
Yeah I had a guy who just couldn't be fixed about 400 counselings later he finished his 3 years and got an honorable discharge
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First, it's a counseling, a written record of a discussion. Nothing more.
Second, this "paperwork", was it initially brought up for the first time this week between drills?
Or was it really due last drill, or earlier?
If the original suspense was NLT last drill, you probably should have already had the discussion and counseling.
And no, the Army shouldn't "have to provide a laptop". Active duty has the option of just going into the office or ed center, reserves have the option getting it done before drill is over, or just going to the nearest armory/ed center or anywhere else where a public access computers allow a CAC reader,
(every library in my city does).
And it's not unreasonable to expect most people to have a laptop, most do. The soldier in question even has one, just happened to break at the worst time.
And it's not unreasonable to expect these 10 min things between drill, after all, every drill you are getting paid two days for every one day there.
Your unit wastes a lot of time during drill? Most do. That doesn't mean you and your squad have to waste time. Read your training schedule, opords, fragos, etc, sit in on the meetings, determine the due-outs and get them done during drill while others are wasting their time.
Second, this "paperwork", was it initially brought up for the first time this week between drills?
Or was it really due last drill, or earlier?
If the original suspense was NLT last drill, you probably should have already had the discussion and counseling.
And no, the Army shouldn't "have to provide a laptop". Active duty has the option of just going into the office or ed center, reserves have the option getting it done before drill is over, or just going to the nearest armory/ed center or anywhere else where a public access computers allow a CAC reader,
(every library in my city does).
And it's not unreasonable to expect most people to have a laptop, most do. The soldier in question even has one, just happened to break at the worst time.
And it's not unreasonable to expect these 10 min things between drill, after all, every drill you are getting paid two days for every one day there.
Your unit wastes a lot of time during drill? Most do. That doesn't mean you and your squad have to waste time. Read your training schedule, opords, fragos, etc, sit in on the meetings, determine the due-outs and get them done during drill while others are wasting their time.
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
1LT William Clardy - Believe me, I have a thorough understanding of the reserve component pay regulations.
In layman's terms:
One drill period is legally a minimum of 4 hours, but can be up to 24 hours.
That is why that one drill period pay is the equivalent of one full duty day.
We can legally pay a maximum of 2 drill periods per calendar day, each one requiring, again, a minimum of 4 hours of duty.
Hence, if you schedule 2 drill periods for the day, again, each one a minimum of 4 hours, and perform 8 hours of duty, that equates to 2 days' worth of pay for what is essentially one day of duty performed.
In layman's terms:
One drill period is legally a minimum of 4 hours, but can be up to 24 hours.
That is why that one drill period pay is the equivalent of one full duty day.
We can legally pay a maximum of 2 drill periods per calendar day, each one requiring, again, a minimum of 4 hours of duty.
Hence, if you schedule 2 drill periods for the day, again, each one a minimum of 4 hours, and perform 8 hours of duty, that equates to 2 days' worth of pay for what is essentially one day of duty performed.
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1LT William Clardy
And in legal terms (DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7A, Chapter 58), reserve-status soldiers are to be paid at a higher rate of compensation for each inactive-duty training period of at least 2 hours duration, but cannot be paid for more than 2 IDT periods in a single day. That means an IDT is considered a half-day equivalent, consistent with the policies requiring that each scheduled IDT perioud must be at least 4 hours in duration. Because the statutory pay for each IDT period is 1/30 of the monthly base pay for that pay grade, reservists' IDT pay rate is roughly double what they would be getting for active duty training.
In layman's terms, that means that Congress has decided to pay for Reserve individual training days (and half-days) at a higher rate than for full-time active-duty training, not getting paid for two days' duty when you're only performing one day's training. That is not a license for leadership to feel justified in demanding more than one day's duty for one day's pay. Instead, they should be honest and call unpaid duty what it legally is, duty without pay.
In layman's terms, that means that Congress has decided to pay for Reserve individual training days (and half-days) at a higher rate than for full-time active-duty training, not getting paid for two days' duty when you're only performing one day's training. That is not a license for leadership to feel justified in demanding more than one day's duty for one day's pay. Instead, they should be honest and call unpaid duty what it legally is, duty without pay.
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
1LT William Clardy - Congress decided that the reserves "may", not "will", pay 2 UTAs per day. A unit can also pay a single UTA per day, for more than 4 hours of total duty.
So yes, 2 UTAs for 1 day is literally 2 days pay for 1 day.
It sure would be nice if everything could be accomplished during a weekend drill, but that's not possible. Nor is it possible to pay a reserve Soldier unless they report to a place of duty, in uniform, and perform at least 4 hours of duty.
And that is an option. If a Soldier wants to be paid for a 10 minute requirement, they can come into the unit to complete that 10 minute requirement and an additional 3 hrs and 50 min of work related to individual or unit readiness, and get a full day's pay.
Much like my 10 years in active duty, awards and OERs/NCOERs are generally written during evenings and weekends, when you have time.
Command and Staff meetings and Training meetings are typically scheduled for a weeknight. The reg is also very clear about this specific example, participants may be awarded a retirement point, but no pay, unless the member reported to a place of duty, and performed at least 4 hours of duty including that meeting. All the way down to the requirement for squad leaders to contact their people once a month between drills (part of suicide prevention).
These are the additional responsibilities you accept when you accept that promotion and leadership position. Just like active duty, accepting a leadership position means you will invest some of your free time. But you have the option of not accepting a leadership position, or not being in the reserve components at all.
Anything published on the training schedule (a direct order from the commander) and not completed during the drill is considered "unsatisfactory performance" and therefore the Soldier could be coded "U" and not paid. Since that rarely happens, and the Soldier is paid for drill for duty not performed, a Commander can absolutely expect that Soldier to complete that task (already paid for) after drill and before the next drill.
ARNG G3 and USAR G3 are pretty consistent at giving 3 to 6 months for any new requirement, but echelons below that are not always that consistent.
Anything not on the training schedule, but pushed down as an immediate requirement, a commander should just respond that it will be complete by next drill. But a commander does not always have that option.
In the OP's example above, a "10 minute thing", it sounds similar to that one-time additional cyber awareness 10 min video that was pushed out Army-wide to all users emails in JAN or FEB, with a suspense of APR.
Most folks just did that when they got the email.
Regardless of what it was, I am taking the OP at his word that this requirement was not previously published for their unit.
In my experience, the majority of complaints I see about having to complete work between drills are regarding tasks that were previously published requirements for one or more drills. Which means they were already paid at least once to get it done.
And in my experience, most of the time I see wasted at drills is the result of PLs and PLT SGTs ignoring the training meeting, and the training schedule emailed and published on DTMS (for 3 months), and waiting until after first formation to find out what needs to happen.
So yes, 2 UTAs for 1 day is literally 2 days pay for 1 day.
It sure would be nice if everything could be accomplished during a weekend drill, but that's not possible. Nor is it possible to pay a reserve Soldier unless they report to a place of duty, in uniform, and perform at least 4 hours of duty.
And that is an option. If a Soldier wants to be paid for a 10 minute requirement, they can come into the unit to complete that 10 minute requirement and an additional 3 hrs and 50 min of work related to individual or unit readiness, and get a full day's pay.
Much like my 10 years in active duty, awards and OERs/NCOERs are generally written during evenings and weekends, when you have time.
Command and Staff meetings and Training meetings are typically scheduled for a weeknight. The reg is also very clear about this specific example, participants may be awarded a retirement point, but no pay, unless the member reported to a place of duty, and performed at least 4 hours of duty including that meeting. All the way down to the requirement for squad leaders to contact their people once a month between drills (part of suicide prevention).
These are the additional responsibilities you accept when you accept that promotion and leadership position. Just like active duty, accepting a leadership position means you will invest some of your free time. But you have the option of not accepting a leadership position, or not being in the reserve components at all.
Anything published on the training schedule (a direct order from the commander) and not completed during the drill is considered "unsatisfactory performance" and therefore the Soldier could be coded "U" and not paid. Since that rarely happens, and the Soldier is paid for drill for duty not performed, a Commander can absolutely expect that Soldier to complete that task (already paid for) after drill and before the next drill.
ARNG G3 and USAR G3 are pretty consistent at giving 3 to 6 months for any new requirement, but echelons below that are not always that consistent.
Anything not on the training schedule, but pushed down as an immediate requirement, a commander should just respond that it will be complete by next drill. But a commander does not always have that option.
In the OP's example above, a "10 minute thing", it sounds similar to that one-time additional cyber awareness 10 min video that was pushed out Army-wide to all users emails in JAN or FEB, with a suspense of APR.
Most folks just did that when they got the email.
Regardless of what it was, I am taking the OP at his word that this requirement was not previously published for their unit.
In my experience, the majority of complaints I see about having to complete work between drills are regarding tasks that were previously published requirements for one or more drills. Which means they were already paid at least once to get it done.
And in my experience, most of the time I see wasted at drills is the result of PLs and PLT SGTs ignoring the training meeting, and the training schedule emailed and published on DTMS (for 3 months), and waiting until after first formation to find out what needs to happen.
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Good afternoon Sergeant Major. I fully concur with You and Your response makes a lot of sense.
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Yes do your counceling session, but in this session you should help the service member know what to do or how to get help. Counseling a SM isn't always negative, it can be helpful, positive, but the fact is you need to do it. So how would you access a computer if you don't have one, think, that is what a leader does. Reserves are different, there is a lot of private time used on Army stuff, just one example. If I got paid for all the hours I put into the Army Reserve at home, I would be a millionair (23yrs). Just part of it. As a Leader you need to help the SM solve the problem, not always bust his ass. Requires you to put some thought into it. Ask yourself the same question.
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Counsel your squad member, BUT do it in a way that,
1. highlights his/her having no access to a computer (this poinits out that the counselling really is moot; but better still, not harmful to the SM)
2. word it so that it eliminates any successive punishment for the same type of situation (item 1, above) [You want to SHIELD the SM from this type of BS, while you comply with being instructed to counsel him - you're both covered that way.]
Aside from the counselling statement, do you and that SM live close enough that he could use your computer? I don't know how CAC cards work - hell, in my day there were no computers!
As someone else noted, if you and the SM aren't close enough, or he's too far from the Reserve Center, maybe a nearby Recruiter can let him use theirs under their supervision. That was good advice by MSG (Join to see).
Or, is your 1SG accessible and would he or she understand the issue? If so, you could suggest to whoever told you to counsel the SM that the 1SG be informed about the problem - the NO COMPUTER; and NOT your feelings about being told to write a counselling statement. You could sugges to him/her that a counselling statement, "might" make you both look bad - unless he/she was TOLD to have your counsel the SM. SUGGEST that if the SM were to file an IG Complaint, it could cause the unit command problems.
1. highlights his/her having no access to a computer (this poinits out that the counselling really is moot; but better still, not harmful to the SM)
2. word it so that it eliminates any successive punishment for the same type of situation (item 1, above) [You want to SHIELD the SM from this type of BS, while you comply with being instructed to counsel him - you're both covered that way.]
Aside from the counselling statement, do you and that SM live close enough that he could use your computer? I don't know how CAC cards work - hell, in my day there were no computers!
As someone else noted, if you and the SM aren't close enough, or he's too far from the Reserve Center, maybe a nearby Recruiter can let him use theirs under their supervision. That was good advice by MSG (Join to see).
Or, is your 1SG accessible and would he or she understand the issue? If so, you could suggest to whoever told you to counsel the SM that the 1SG be informed about the problem - the NO COMPUTER; and NOT your feelings about being told to write a counselling statement. You could sugges to him/her that a counselling statement, "might" make you both look bad - unless he/she was TOLD to have your counsel the SM. SUGGEST that if the SM were to file an IG Complaint, it could cause the unit command problems.
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I think it's all about lining up your ducks and documenting how you push back.
Let the counseling happen, and then in the block you get to write comments that's where you push back respectfully. Basically, create a documented trail that can be used to push back through your chain of command, legal/IG and then eventually a congressional inquiry.
Push comes to shove, there is no regulation that I am required to own a personal smart phone and have access to it 24/7 so I can reply to new unit message updates about an up coming training or some event.
They can call me via voice or mail me via USPS if they want to reach out to me.
***
I always wonder how the USAR world worked back in 1990 when there was no connectivity. When at the end of a formation at a Battle Assembly would be the LAST TIME leadership communicated to their soldiers until the NEXT Battle Assembly.
If there was a change of training (between Battle Assemblies) then it had to be communicated one at a time by a phone call all the way down from the commander to the team leaders. I can imagine it would be a major pain in the ass. Therefor PLANNING would have to be much better.
Now, we are lazy with our planning commitments and are too quick to choose a course of action with the presumption we can change it later
***
What I have found out as I got more exposure to the inner workings of how the USAR works is the regulations allow E4 and below to be jerked around because the penalties that can be placed on them are easier to execute at the company level without judicial interference. Therefor it's easier to make them think they have to jump for every single little thing that's pushed down the pipe ever last little minute.
Once one is an NCO and an Officer it becomes a bit harder to nail them for petty things. Regulations and the judicial process make the effort very costly in terms of how far a COL might want to go to punish an LT over not doing his on-line training on time. Maybe it might be annotated as a bullet in an OER, but it's not going to stop the LT from becoming a CPT if the LT is not flagged and has completed required training for the next rank.
HELL!!!!!!!!!! There was a CPT in my unit and in 2 years I've never met the guy. Everyone keeps asking how we can contact him. He's so checked out he just stopped coming. Then he shows up on the UMR as a MAJ a few months ago. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
**********
What your chain of command can do is force people to stay behind at BA to finish what needs to be finished. They have your undivided attention for FORTY EIGHT HOURS!!!!!!!!!!! So it's on you to manage your time if you want to get out of there sooner.
I once had my 1SG push back on me (when I was commander) that we needed to make MONDAY an additional BA day so we could catch up on a bunch of admin things. I was left wonder why this was such a big deal. Because the consequences of conflicts with civilian work would be astronomical. I was NOT in favor of doing this.
My 1SG kept pushing me. FINALLY!!!! I had to ask......... What are the consequences if we do not get this admin tasker done??? She said CSM would be mad..........
HAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Yea, NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not rearranging a MUTA on the training schedule because CSM says jump. It the Battalion Commander isn't harping on me for this then it's not important enough \.
***********
I guess what I'm saying is just do we we can as USAR soldiers, and it will all work itself out.
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That said, I have also learned as a solider and leader I am in a VERY POWERFUL POSITION career wise if I have computer accessibility to get USAR work done at a moments notice. I can stay on top of things, not get broadsided and over all come out smelling like roses.
Work towards that goal and you will rise to the top of your USAR career. Otherwise, just count the days till ETS because at the end of it all even totally incompetent flagged soldiers get Honorable discharges at the end of the contract (unless there is serious criminal UCMJ or drug flags) who are barred from reenlistment. So who cares about a counseling statement. Just sign it, make note of it, and annotate your position so it can be referenced in the future in a legal setting.
Let the counseling happen, and then in the block you get to write comments that's where you push back respectfully. Basically, create a documented trail that can be used to push back through your chain of command, legal/IG and then eventually a congressional inquiry.
Push comes to shove, there is no regulation that I am required to own a personal smart phone and have access to it 24/7 so I can reply to new unit message updates about an up coming training or some event.
They can call me via voice or mail me via USPS if they want to reach out to me.
***
I always wonder how the USAR world worked back in 1990 when there was no connectivity. When at the end of a formation at a Battle Assembly would be the LAST TIME leadership communicated to their soldiers until the NEXT Battle Assembly.
If there was a change of training (between Battle Assemblies) then it had to be communicated one at a time by a phone call all the way down from the commander to the team leaders. I can imagine it would be a major pain in the ass. Therefor PLANNING would have to be much better.
Now, we are lazy with our planning commitments and are too quick to choose a course of action with the presumption we can change it later
***
What I have found out as I got more exposure to the inner workings of how the USAR works is the regulations allow E4 and below to be jerked around because the penalties that can be placed on them are easier to execute at the company level without judicial interference. Therefor it's easier to make them think they have to jump for every single little thing that's pushed down the pipe ever last little minute.
Once one is an NCO and an Officer it becomes a bit harder to nail them for petty things. Regulations and the judicial process make the effort very costly in terms of how far a COL might want to go to punish an LT over not doing his on-line training on time. Maybe it might be annotated as a bullet in an OER, but it's not going to stop the LT from becoming a CPT if the LT is not flagged and has completed required training for the next rank.
HELL!!!!!!!!!! There was a CPT in my unit and in 2 years I've never met the guy. Everyone keeps asking how we can contact him. He's so checked out he just stopped coming. Then he shows up on the UMR as a MAJ a few months ago. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
**********
What your chain of command can do is force people to stay behind at BA to finish what needs to be finished. They have your undivided attention for FORTY EIGHT HOURS!!!!!!!!!!! So it's on you to manage your time if you want to get out of there sooner.
I once had my 1SG push back on me (when I was commander) that we needed to make MONDAY an additional BA day so we could catch up on a bunch of admin things. I was left wonder why this was such a big deal. Because the consequences of conflicts with civilian work would be astronomical. I was NOT in favor of doing this.
My 1SG kept pushing me. FINALLY!!!! I had to ask......... What are the consequences if we do not get this admin tasker done??? She said CSM would be mad..........
HAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Yea, NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not rearranging a MUTA on the training schedule because CSM says jump. It the Battalion Commander isn't harping on me for this then it's not important enough \.
***********
I guess what I'm saying is just do we we can as USAR soldiers, and it will all work itself out.
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That said, I have also learned as a solider and leader I am in a VERY POWERFUL POSITION career wise if I have computer accessibility to get USAR work done at a moments notice. I can stay on top of things, not get broadsided and over all come out smelling like roses.
Work towards that goal and you will rise to the top of your USAR career. Otherwise, just count the days till ETS because at the end of it all even totally incompetent flagged soldiers get Honorable discharges at the end of the contract (unless there is serious criminal UCMJ or drug flags) who are barred from reenlistment. So who cares about a counseling statement. Just sign it, make note of it, and annotate your position so it can be referenced in the future in a legal setting.
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A counseling is event oriented... meaning it records an event. Regardless of right or wrong what is the problem with recording the event? Maybe it would eventually end up protecting individual because now there is a record. One counseling doesn't destroy someone's career. I feel like you're fighting for almost no reason or just because of lack of understanding. Seems like a strange hill to die on.
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