Posted on Jun 29, 2014
'Bring back DADT' post: Personal update. See below
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To all who have been personally affected by this post, I extend my public and personal apology. Be assured that IN NO WAY was this post intended to impinge on anyone's personal beliefs. As previously stated, I still have the same stand on 'keep it to yourself' on whatever choices you make. That means gay AND straight.
That also means if I hear anyone talking about how many b**%&es they knocked up or junk in the trunk, I will still politely and firmly ask them to stop. I also realized that I'm a service member just like most of us here. Offending and causing strife amongst brothers and sisters in arms was my ABSOLUTELY LAST INTENTION.
If anything, this post served for me as a personal lesson on how to express myself on public media, especially in writing, and hope it served a lesson for you to choose your words carefully, especially when addressing most of us wearing uniform here on Rallypoint.
I also wanted to thank MAJ Yinon Weiss for encouraging me to deal with it, learn from people's reactions, and restating my view in less hostile manner. Once again, as a brother and sister in arms, I may not like your certain points of view and you may not like some of mine, but let's agree to disagree, express ourselves more tactfully, and stay focused on our mission to this beloved country of ours.
Hooyah, hooah, hoorah, and hip-hip hooray (USAF?)
That also means if I hear anyone talking about how many b**%&es they knocked up or junk in the trunk, I will still politely and firmly ask them to stop. I also realized that I'm a service member just like most of us here. Offending and causing strife amongst brothers and sisters in arms was my ABSOLUTELY LAST INTENTION.
If anything, this post served for me as a personal lesson on how to express myself on public media, especially in writing, and hope it served a lesson for you to choose your words carefully, especially when addressing most of us wearing uniform here on Rallypoint.
I also wanted to thank MAJ Yinon Weiss for encouraging me to deal with it, learn from people's reactions, and restating my view in less hostile manner. Once again, as a brother and sister in arms, I may not like your certain points of view and you may not like some of mine, but let's agree to disagree, express ourselves more tactfully, and stay focused on our mission to this beloved country of ours.
Hooyah, hooah, hoorah, and hip-hip hooray (USAF?)
Posted in these groups: 
Pride
Celebration
Pride Celebration
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 57
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I dont believe a person's sexual preference should be celebrated by the military but if someone wants to celebrate making strides in homosexual rights out of uniform, then I say go for it.
I feel the military's problem is they say sexual preference doesn't matter and yet our living conditions are still separated by gender. I was told we're separated to reduce the risk of sexual harassment, fraternization and pregnancy. But sexual preference isn't suppose to matter because we're all soldiers...??
I feel the military's problem is they say sexual preference doesn't matter and yet our living conditions are still separated by gender. I was told we're separated to reduce the risk of sexual harassment, fraternization and pregnancy. But sexual preference isn't suppose to matter because we're all soldiers...??
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see), no harm. Most Specialists have less than five years, time in. My current status has quite a bit to do with moving units often due to my husband's job and the fact that in many of those units, there were simply no E-5 slots for an 88M. That's the case now. Additionally, I spent two years preparing for a commission and rank, for most of us, was irrelevant. So time is still passing, and unfortunately, my OCS plans are currently on hold and I'm stagnating in an E-4 slot. On the bright side, though, my experience now and the knowledge I continue to gain will help me later as a leader.
Thank you for your acknowledgement. And on my end, I believe you have made many good points and they have been noted!
Thank you for your acknowledgement. And on my end, I believe you have made many good points and they have been noted!
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see), that really sucks to stagnant. I definitely know how you feel. I just retired after 23 years in service (on terminal leave now) with the last 10 as a SSG. It hurt to not be selected for SFC but I realize now my path lies elsewhere. Keep your head though. You'll get it eventually. If I may ask, and if I can help, what are you missing to make points?
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SGT (Join to see)
I have the plenty of points. I had an administrative issue, currently resolved, that forced me to miss the board last month. It's still a bitter issue with me as in my current understanding, it possibly could have had a more timely outcome.
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SSG William Patton
Sgt Jarrett, I can also cite studies that support homosexuality as being genetic. The information you cited is based on 1960s psychological research and less on genetics. Drs. Zhang and Oldenwald have identified a W gene that appears in homosexuals of all species, but according to Thompson, it appears in humans and is manefested as bisexual behavior. Another study based upon autopsys by Simon LeVay, Ph. D. in California showed that the interstilian neucleus in the hypothamus was smaller in homosexuals than heteorsexuals. In a US News report discussion was the transfer of genetic material where the W gene was transferred to the homosexual son from the mother and the W gene was transferred from the father to the homosexual daughter. What must be understood about research is who is funding the research and what is their agenda. Fundamentalist like to think all behavior is learned and a lot of it is, but they refute science because that is at odds with their fundamentalist beliefs on creation. Follow the money. Look at who is funding the research and then examine their agenda and you will see a trend.
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If allowing homosexuals to serve was the way we were going, fine. Allow them to serve openly, but they should have kept DADT. DADT didn't just cover homosexual behavior. It covered ALL sexual behavior. I don't want your sexuality, whether homo or hetero being displayed at work.
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TSgt (Join to see)
SSG Scholl, DADT DID force some service members to serve a lie. It prevented homosexual service members from being honest about themselves, for fear of being discharged and criminally charged.
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SCPO (Join to see)
UCMJ Article 120 has been revised, apparently. When it still was the Sodomy Article, it made no distinction as to consent or the gender of the individuals engaging in the forbidden activities. Now it bans non-consensual sexual activity - as it should, IMO.
DADT didn't exactly require living a lie, that's true. It did forbid investigating whether a service member was gay as well as forbidding a service member from revealing they were gay. That sounds fair enough, *except* when you consider that straight people could bring their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend to work-related social events (and most did, although some preferred not to).
Straight people could have pictures of the their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend on their desk, cubicle walls, etc... - gay people couldn't. Straight people could mention their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend by name - gay people couldn't. Straight people could hold hands and engage in other PDAs (technically, only when out of uniform but I'd love to find out about any straight uniformed personnel disciplined for hugging or kissing their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend upon returning from a deployment) - again, gay people could not.
Gay people could make up a name for their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend that identified them as being the appropriate gender - but that gets us into lies, doesn't it?
DADT didn't exactly require living a lie, that's true. It did forbid investigating whether a service member was gay as well as forbidding a service member from revealing they were gay. That sounds fair enough, *except* when you consider that straight people could bring their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend to work-related social events (and most did, although some preferred not to).
Straight people could have pictures of the their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend on their desk, cubicle walls, etc... - gay people couldn't. Straight people could mention their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend by name - gay people couldn't. Straight people could hold hands and engage in other PDAs (technically, only when out of uniform but I'd love to find out about any straight uniformed personnel disciplined for hugging or kissing their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend upon returning from a deployment) - again, gay people could not.
Gay people could make up a name for their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend that identified them as being the appropriate gender - but that gets us into lies, doesn't it?
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MCPO (Join to see)
LCT Labrador, there have been many sodomy charges brought, but most are kept quiet.
Circa 1990 an Airman was seen in his own home (okay, base housing) by a member of his unit, receiving consensual oral sex from his wife after a week-long outing. The witness went to the command, complained, and when questioned, the member admitted engaging in the act.
The command gave him an Article 15, which was refused, and the matter was referred to Court Martial, where he was found guilty. I heard this from his unit First Sergeant some 8 years after the fact.
In 2002, a Coast Guard member engaged in a threesome with a female and another male - at the female's request/insistence. The two males NEVER touched each other. Both males were charged under the UCMJ for sodomy and unnatural acts. I was a witness to the Court Martial for one, who was found guilty.
Personally, I am VERY happy DA/DT is gone, and I'm terminally straight, though I've had gay friends forever. All they had to do is be SEEN with their significant other at a restaurant to have an investigation launched by an overzealous command... and I won't even mention the desk pictures and PDAs after deployments and such.
Circa 1990 an Airman was seen in his own home (okay, base housing) by a member of his unit, receiving consensual oral sex from his wife after a week-long outing. The witness went to the command, complained, and when questioned, the member admitted engaging in the act.
The command gave him an Article 15, which was refused, and the matter was referred to Court Martial, where he was found guilty. I heard this from his unit First Sergeant some 8 years after the fact.
In 2002, a Coast Guard member engaged in a threesome with a female and another male - at the female's request/insistence. The two males NEVER touched each other. Both males were charged under the UCMJ for sodomy and unnatural acts. I was a witness to the Court Martial for one, who was found guilty.
Personally, I am VERY happy DA/DT is gone, and I'm terminally straight, though I've had gay friends forever. All they had to do is be SEEN with their significant other at a restaurant to have an investigation launched by an overzealous command... and I won't even mention the desk pictures and PDAs after deployments and such.
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CW3 (Join to see)
When I was active duty and stationed in Germany, the Stars and Stripes ran a story about how a jr. enlisted male got a blowjob from a jr. enlisted female at a party, and got an Article 15 for sodomy. No word on what happened to the female.
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While I wholly respect your religious "choices," your language and intent are out of line. All members of the team deserve respect, and while I personally don't share their sexual preference, that has absolutely nothing to do with our roles in a professional military. I suggest that you spend some time working on your separation of personal belief and professional role as a Petty Officer, remembering that the homosexual Sailors in your charge will need your unbiased leadership and mentorship to accomplish the mission.
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SGM Gregory Miller
Or is a lack of respect earned? I personally never knew a Soldier that woke up, looked himself in the mirror and said "I'm going to royally screw up today." Our charges should start out with a basic level of respect and earn more as they show that they deserve it. The way you put it leads some Officers and NCOs to feel that they can wait to give you any respect until you've earned it....not exactly right.
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SFC Cornelius Walsh
SGT Jarrett - Can you back up your medical claims? Furthermore, nothing is being shoved down our throats, unless you count being forcibly subjected to prayer, or being constantly exposed to heterosexual spouses. We can't have it both ways.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT Jinger Jarrett I am so incredibly glad that you are no longer serving. The ignorance is strong and your comments are nauseating. When I joined, I promised myself that I would never lie about who I was, to anyone, and if the Army kicked out an amazing soldier because I was dating a woman then it wouldn’t be my loss. Luckily DADT was repealed when I was in basic.
If you can bring your husband to a ball then I can bring my wife. Simple as that. THAT’S “live and let live”.
If you can bring your husband to a ball then I can bring my wife. Simple as that. THAT’S “live and let live”.
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I don't know about everybody else, but I like tater tots.
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SFC Clint Ward
I believe they should, it is no one's business either way. Every service member should be there to perform a specific function and their sexual preferences shouldn't be a part of that function unless we are bringing back brothels as a very valid way to de-stress. Descrimination and manipulation should never be used to control people just because of sexual preference.
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SFC Jeffrey Thivierge, MA, BSN, RN
I was attempting to interject some levity into this otherwise humorless debate about DADT. #ijustfailed
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SGT Joseph Smith
Zombie Donuts: the donut shop that is STILL open after your benger at the stri... Uh... Club you crawled out of at 3am... :-)
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PO1 Jacob Dronzin, you put choices in capital letters in order to show your opinion. I got that. However, you may want to look at the facts and science rather than your religion and OPINION. You don't just choose to be gay and that is scientific fact. So this isn't about a choice. It's about a fellow service members right to serve and not have to hide who they are from YOU without fear of retribution or harassment.
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MSG (Join to see)
Pedophiles are born attracted to little kids, but we lock them up. Not picking a fight or taking sides, just throwing that out there. It negates the "born that way" "didn't choose" fallacy.
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SFC (Join to see)
I see what you are saying SFC Layman. I, myself have never believed in the "born this way" excuse. To me the Pedophiles, Homosexuals, and Heterosexual all have desires. Its up to that person to display or act on those desires.
Example. Im a straight married man. Im attracted to women, just because I'm married does not mean i don't find other women attractive. I just don't act on those desires.
Thats just my opinion and i really don't care what people are as long as the show up to work, work, go home, and stay out of trouble.
Example. Im a straight married man. Im attracted to women, just because I'm married does not mean i don't find other women attractive. I just don't act on those desires.
Thats just my opinion and i really don't care what people are as long as the show up to work, work, go home, and stay out of trouble.
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SFC (Join to see)
So SFC Thomas, let's flip this a little. Let us say for example that the "norm" for society was that males marry and date males and females with females. However, you still feel the same way you do now. You are only attracted to females not males. Do you just suck it up, take one for the team and find a man? Take your time on this one...let me know what you come up with..
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SCPO (Join to see)
The practice of implying similarity between homosexuality and pedophilia, necrophilia, and bestiality (among other comparisons) ignores one factor that should, IMO, be paramount - informed consent. In our society we have decided that those humans who are not adults cannot give legally binding consent. I think it is inherently obvious that the dead cannot give consent to anything. I also think it is reasonable to hold that animals also cannot give informed consent - and that we could not understand their consent, even if they could give it. Adults of both sexes, on the other hand, can give informed consent. This applies to marriages, mortgages, contracts, employment, and sexual interactions. That is one of those things that makes (living) adults different from minors, dead people, and animals in the eyes of the law.
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As a straight male and active duty member of the Navy I'm offended by the question. We have opened the closet and allowed those who were in it to step out and be accepted. Training was put in place as a result. To go back to the old dark times is an insult to those who respect their choices as well as those who had to hide all these years. So no we should not go back.
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PO1 (Join to see)
And I'm not for kicking people out for 'coming out'. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I do not condone celebrating one's sexual preference so openly as if comparing it to liberation from some kind of slavery
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PO1 (Join to see)
I have no problem people expressing their rights or beliefs. Like us they have fought for the right to express themselves. I wouldn't allow it at work or while on duty but on their off time or leave I have no problem.with it.
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SSG (Join to see)
You confuse we with everybody. I never made a choice to accept that behavior. I did make a choice to join the military and follow the rules and regulations set forward to me. You confuse acceptance for tolerance.
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Let's be real about DADT. It was a tool used to "allow members to maintain their dignity" - but it was also a farce. I served alongside multiple gay members throughout my years of service. We live in a society in which there have been and will continue to be members of said society that do NOT behave in manners in which we approve. The CIA and NSA both figured out how to deal with members who are gay, lesbian, etc., and it's high time we do the same.
Here's an interesting point to consider: many of the arguements put forth by those who continue to want to isolate, discriminate and castigate those who openly declare their sexual preferences are precisely the same arguements used to attempt to continue the "separate but equal" statutes against black members of our society. Those arguements were proven false time and again in the instances used against blacks.
If someone's sexual preferences and openness bother you - have a conversation with them and be honest but polite. Trust me, being honest and saying "I feel uncomfortable when you do......" will go a lot further than trying any other method. BTW, that method works for a lot of situations.
Going back to DADT is not going to happen - mostly because you can't. Congress said it's not legal to do it any longer. Get over youself.
Here's an interesting point to consider: many of the arguements put forth by those who continue to want to isolate, discriminate and castigate those who openly declare their sexual preferences are precisely the same arguements used to attempt to continue the "separate but equal" statutes against black members of our society. Those arguements were proven false time and again in the instances used against blacks.
If someone's sexual preferences and openness bother you - have a conversation with them and be honest but polite. Trust me, being honest and saying "I feel uncomfortable when you do......" will go a lot further than trying any other method. BTW, that method works for a lot of situations.
Going back to DADT is not going to happen - mostly because you can't. Congress said it's not legal to do it any longer. Get over youself.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
I don't feel comfortable around overly homo people..... and I don't feel comfortable around overly hetero people either.. lol
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CW3 (Join to see)
Here's the thing, SGT Jerrett: what is it you don't want to hear/see? I'm in my WOAC right now, my anniversary is Saturday, 13 September, and I put in for a weekend pass....I'm flying my wife down that Friday evening and we're going to spend the weekend together.
When I said that in class, none of my classmates batted an eye at all. I've seen plenty of times where even a MENTION by a gay soldier of a boyfriend/girlfriend of the same sex is met with an accusation of 'flaunting it'. Why?
When I said that in class, none of my classmates batted an eye at all. I've seen plenty of times where even a MENTION by a gay soldier of a boyfriend/girlfriend of the same sex is met with an accusation of 'flaunting it'. Why?
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PO1 (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see) I think that's a great question! Do we have double standards in this area? Is it ok to flaunt our sexual attributes if we are heterosexual but NOT ok if we are gay? How many times do we see a female SM swish and sway their way by a group of soldiers without comment - cuz if you DO comment in any way you get to see that nasty dragon about harassment.
So, where do we draw that line?
So, where do we draw that line?
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CW3 (Join to see)
I'm not talking about swishing and swaying. I'm talking about stuff that we don't actually bat an eye over, or barely even notice when heterosexual couples do it.
When my wife comes down here to celebrate our anniversary with me, one of the things I want to do is hit the River Walk. I can guarantee you that no one is going to say a word about us walking down the path holding hands.... but if two guys were to do the same thing, especially in THIS area, they might get shot.
When my wife comes down here to celebrate our anniversary with me, one of the things I want to do is hit the River Walk. I can guarantee you that no one is going to say a word about us walking down the path holding hands.... but if two guys were to do the same thing, especially in THIS area, they might get shot.
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I was all for DADT being repealed as I think everyone should have the right to serve openly. However, what concerns me, and concerned me even before DADT, (but we couldn't do anything about it because of DADT) is gay servicemembers in living quarters. No, I don't have a solution, but when you get down to it, in the navy, on a ship, you have separate male and female living quarters. WHY? For privacy, and let's be real, to prevent hanky panky from those who may be hooking up. During DADT, you may have "known" who your fellow servicemembers were who were gay, but nobody ever admitted it and nothing could ever be done about it. I knew specifically of 2 girls in my berthing area who were dating each other. EVERYBODY knew it, but DADT protected them, and they were ALWAYS together. I never actually saw them doing anything, but they were in the same living quarters.... they weren't separated. Meanwhile, I was separated from the guy I was dating because we were heterosexual and opposite sexes.
No, I don't have a solution to the problem, but I think it's an interesting situation. Certainly not "fair" that men and women are separated but because of the choice to be homosexual, those standards don't apply.
No, I don't have a solution to the problem, but I think it's an interesting situation. Certainly not "fair" that men and women are separated but because of the choice to be homosexual, those standards don't apply.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Amanda, One of my COs and I had a long discussion about men and women serving on ships together years ago; our discussion took weeks and evolved into a point paper forwarded up the chain. As with many suggestions, it was not implemented.
Our bottom line was that up to now, Navy has always berthed by department and divisions. Berthing areas on ships have private bunks with curtains that are drawn for privacy. Sailors should be berthed by division, not by Gender and/division.
Our bottom line was that up to now, Navy has always berthed by department and divisions. Berthing areas on ships have private bunks with curtains that are drawn for privacy. Sailors should be berthed by division, not by Gender and/division.
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PO3 (Join to see)
Masterchief - well, that would certainly eliminate/significantly reduce the dating within berthing situation because everybody knows you aren't supposed to date within your own chain of command and if you get busted... well, that's your dumb fault. And if you meet someone that you REALLY REALLY gotta be with (aka - someone who is worth it, ie, you're gonna get married) well, then own up to it and ask to be transferred. Not that difficult.
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SCPO (Join to see)
SSgt Brandon Ward - your post reminds me of a sign I saw in the window of a bar "National Sex Week: If you gave at the office, you need not give at home."
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DADT is in the past so IMHO, lets leave it there. Everyone has the right and privilege to serve their country and DoD has accounted for it. As for pride events, (there was a post on that a while back about color guards and pride events that is relevant) that's an individual's right and choice SO LONG AS they are not doing what the picture you posted shows - that's out of bounds, against regs and could lead us towards the S&G situation.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/gay-lesbian-pride-color-guard-in-uniform
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/gay-lesbian-pride-color-guard-in-uniform
Gay Lesbian Pride color guard in Uniform | RallyPoint
The Department of Defense has authorized what military gay-rights groups and organizers of the Capital Pride parade say is a first nationwide — a color guard that will present the red, white and blue as well as flags of each branch of the military. I'm going to leave it at this. I believe sexual orientation and military should be kept separate whatever your choice is. Why is this allowed when other causes such as a political rally in support...
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I didn't serve to "Protect Rights" just for some and not others. I am a big time believer in Civil Rights. I served with several individuals that were LGBT. Didn't see a problem with it then and don't now. If they feel Pride in being themselves I say "Thank God" enough in this country would prefer they Hate themselves. I don't feel like anything is being "Shoved down my throat". I still like the Ladies and my Gay Friends are not going to change that. I am a Proud Member of the White Rose Society and the Christian Left and and Honorary Member of the Rainbow Rose Society.
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