Posted on Apr 24, 2018
Can I receive a counseling statment with corrective action and an article 15 for the same mistake. Can this considered as a double jeopardy?
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Article 15
Counseling
UCMJ
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 17
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Stop get of the internet with your current legal issues and go see JAG TDS is a free use it.
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Cpl Scott McCarroll
PFC (Join to see) don't know if they do it anymore, but when I went to boot camp July 4th 1973, one of the first things my DI made abundantly clear was that any laws of the Nation went out the door that had just closed behind him. I am now covered by the UCMJ. LoL just pulling your chain. Really Mathew gave you great advice, anything I might say would be really really really dated, as you can see from the date I entered boot. You are spot on for wanting to know what you can expect, just remember to breathe and if at attention Don't lock your legs, I don't know how many guys I have seen pass out from doing that. Hope everything works out.
Thanks for your service.
Thanks for your service.
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MSG Steve Wiersgalla
Internet forums and barracks lawyers are probably the two worst places to seek legal advice. Go to JAG.
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SSG (Join to see)
PFC (Join to see) - understand that TDS does this day in and day out they know the commands and they are the ones that will defend you. Go talk to them they are the subject matter experts use them. And get off the internet about any pending legal issues nothing good can come from you posting online about your legal issues.
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I highly recommend you take the course of action suggested to you. Nothing told to you on this forum is binding in any way, nor does it protect you.
But it could hurt you.
But it could hurt you.
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It is not double jeopardy. Corrective training/action is not punishment. If you are late to formation, your NCO can give you a counseling and have you show up early for a week in order to train you to show up on time and at the same time your PL can recommend that you receive a summarized art 15 because you make a habit of showing up late. Usually, or at least what I always did, was wait until I have three or so counselings that deal with negative actions in a certain time frame, usually 30-60 days, and if those happen then I would recommend an Art 15 on the grounds of pattern of misconduct and more than likely I'll get that through. Getting an Art. 15 for one offense, unless it is pretty damning, usually doesn't happen.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
And a couple of further comments to help educate the young man. Your NCO should be counseling you all along and not just when you screw up, so a counseling statement isn't or at least should not be a form of punishment. As SGT Gunderson stated, and I would have expected, normally the are several bad counseling statements before any other actions are taken. If the commander choses to give you a Summarized Article 15, which limits punishment to restriction, extra duty and a reprimand, you aren't even entitled an attorney. You can request a court martial, but I would be damn sure I could prove I was innocent before I took that step.
Just as a further note on Double Jeopardy in the service. Since Article 15 is Administrative Punishment, it isn't considered double jeopardy if the JAG Office decides to Court Martial you for the same offense. Don't let that scare you, I've never seen it happen myself, but it's legal for them to do it.
Just as a further note on Double Jeopardy in the service. Since Article 15 is Administrative Punishment, it isn't considered double jeopardy if the JAG Office decides to Court Martial you for the same offense. Don't let that scare you, I've never seen it happen myself, but it's legal for them to do it.
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Way way too vague- A counseling statement with CORRECTIVE action, is not construed to be punishment but as CORRECTIVE Action. An Art15 is punishment after an investigation concludes you did violate UCMJ. Our talk is cheap, you have the right to see JAG at any time, and quite frankly- they are the only ones who can help you in legal matters. Get off your 4th POC and go see them, with your paperwork in hand.
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A counseling is non punitive. Corrective action can be construed as punishment if administered inappropriately. Speak to JAG and thank you for your service.
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Nope...totally double jeopardy....can't do it.....unconstitutional...you have rights....demand trial by court martial and you'll walk....
All of that advice was sarcasm and probably shouldn't be followed. You should go talk to JAG. They can advise you of what your best COA is. Or if you don't trust them, pay for a lawyer off post who specializes in military law.
All of that advice was sarcasm and probably shouldn't be followed. You should go talk to JAG. They can advise you of what your best COA is. Or if you don't trust them, pay for a lawyer off post who specializes in military law.
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If done correctly, no it is not. Example: Drunk on duty- Company Grade Article 15, 14 & 14. Counseling & corrective action- referred to ADAPCP. One is judgment and punishment for the crime, the second is to address the contributing factors. conditions, and behavior that resulted in the crime.
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Well if they started with a article 15 first and then a counseling is a little backwards but OH YES it can and should be done Counseling Article 15 then Counseling every day week or month
Young soldier You are not a civilian
Young soldier You are not a civilian
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Its NJP. So yes. Figure out what is going wrong and engineer a work-around so you can put the situation behind you.
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Yes. Command may use the counselling statement as a basis for issuing further NJP. no. It isn't additional punishment, or punishment again, just further needed corrective action.
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If I get an article 15 and then a Coinciding on top of that what happenes next
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Yes. Absolutely you can. Two different actions. Counseling statements are a historical record of service while under a particular command.
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Yes, you can receive both. Make the changes you need to make, so that will be your final Article 15 and negative counseling statement. Accept the consequences and figure out how you turn this around.
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It depends on if you have been given a council on the issue before and the severity of your action. A double jeopardy doesn't really exist as far as counseling statements go, as you can be counselled by different people for the same issue.
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Report to directly to JAG, don't pass go, and don't collect $200s. Oh,,, and most importantly Soldier...Stay out of trouble!!!
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