Posted on Jan 22, 2019
Can NCOs give you a lawful order about a non-military related matter?
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Can an NCO give you a "lawful" order to talk to civilian police about a personal investigation? I feel that violates my civic rights. Also I refused to speak with that NCO about the investigation over the weekend after the fact. Can NCO'S give you a lawful order about non-military related matter? Do they have jurisdiction at all in those matters and do i have to talk to them? And if I don't is, that grounds for UCMJ? Shes trying to throw in that I disrespected her for not talking to her about it as well .
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UCMJ
UCMJ
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 11
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I'd make an appointment with your JAG. I'd also keep your mouth shut until you talk to them.
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If you are the one under investigation, the only thing you should say to the civilian police is: I invoke my 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights."
The only thing you should say to any military member, whether your supervisor, MPs, CID, Cdr, is: "I invoke my 5th Amendment and Article 31 right to remain silent "
Then, you should seek legal counsel. JAG for the issue of refusing to talk about the matter with your supervisor, and the matter at issue with the civilian law enforcement. (JAG won't represent you with civilian authorities. )
A defense attorney, or public defender, regarding the matter at issue with the civilian authorities.
After you've spoken with JAG and/or a defense attorney, don't speak to ANYONE about the matter, and refer questions to them.
Your supervisor erred if she failed to advise you of your rights.
The only thing you should say to any military member, whether your supervisor, MPs, CID, Cdr, is: "I invoke my 5th Amendment and Article 31 right to remain silent "
Then, you should seek legal counsel. JAG for the issue of refusing to talk about the matter with your supervisor, and the matter at issue with the civilian law enforcement. (JAG won't represent you with civilian authorities. )
A defense attorney, or public defender, regarding the matter at issue with the civilian authorities.
After you've spoken with JAG and/or a defense attorney, don't speak to ANYONE about the matter, and refer questions to them.
Your supervisor erred if she failed to advise you of your rights.
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Practice saying this phrase: "I plead the 5th to any question you ask. I also invoke my right to have an attorney present." NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE/DETECTIVE/CID/NCIS/OSI/FBI/ETC WITHOUT HAVING LEGAL COUNSEL PRESENT!!! EVER!! And this is coming from a former police officer (both military and civilian).
Now that being said, yes, your CoC can order you to respond to an investigative authority. What they CAN NOT do is force you to give incriminating statements without the benefit of legal counsel present. My suggestion would be to tactfully inform your NCO and/or Officer that you will be happy to speak with an investigator just as soon as you can retain the services of a qualified attorney. And for Pete's Sake, if your lawyer tells you to shut your mouth, DO EXACTLY THAT!!
Now that being said, yes, your CoC can order you to respond to an investigative authority. What they CAN NOT do is force you to give incriminating statements without the benefit of legal counsel present. My suggestion would be to tactfully inform your NCO and/or Officer that you will be happy to speak with an investigator just as soon as you can retain the services of a qualified attorney. And for Pete's Sake, if your lawyer tells you to shut your mouth, DO EXACTLY THAT!!
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Table all that for a second. Here’s another way this could go down. The local police arrive at the MP station with a warrant for your arrest. They call your CoC and have you post at the HQ, then you get Mirandized, cuffed, and stuffed in front of your unit. Then you will be flagged awaiting out come of a civil trial where your civic rights are observed at a glacial DA regulated pace that is half the speed of smell.
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Talk to JAG.
That said, your NCO may "think" she is "trying" to help YOU or possibly the command by giving said order. However, once you have spoken, you cannot unspeak those words. Talk to JAG.
That said, your NCO may "think" she is "trying" to help YOU or possibly the command by giving said order. However, once you have spoken, you cannot unspeak those words. Talk to JAG.
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Seeing the JAG is sound advice. And, the 5th amendment and also an article in the UCMJ gives one the right to say nothing Sorry, I forget the article number in the UCMJ, but, I know there is one.
I think it is article 31.
I think it is article 31.
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The NCO creed states ...”I will not use my grade not position to obtain pleasure, profit or personal safety...”
Having said that, take everyone’s advice and call JAG.
Having said that, take everyone’s advice and call JAG.
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You are in the military - there is NOTHING that's not military-related if you're involved.
That said, it's a sticky situation for other reasons. I think I would be the one talking to the JAG before I gave the order.
That said, it's a sticky situation for other reasons. I think I would be the one talking to the JAG before I gave the order.
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PFC (Join to see)
Great advice SGT, I thought things seemed pretty sketchy. Nice to know someone objectively agrees.
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SGT (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see) - honestly, there are lots of things the military has no say over.
Great example. The ‘why’ of the situation doesn’t matter, but a while back, my Company Commander wanted to speak with my wife. I told him I’d ask, but couldn’t guarantee anything.
She laughed when I asked and said ‘nope’. Anyway, a few weeks later, off post, we ran into my Commander, and he actually got a little lippy with me, and then my wife. Actually, swearing, wagging his finger. To the nature of, “I f*ckin told you I need to talk with you. I expect you in my office Monday morning”. I just about had to stop her from smacking him.
I showed up early Monday morning, explained the nonsense to the 1SG, and then told the Commander he wouldn’t be speaking to me or my wife like that again, and left. He absolutely crossed a line, he was absolutely wrong, he had absolutely zero authority to beckon my wife to a meeting with him, and when he was told so (with the 1SG behind me. I needed CAS for that conversation), he ultimately dropped it.
Great example. The ‘why’ of the situation doesn’t matter, but a while back, my Company Commander wanted to speak with my wife. I told him I’d ask, but couldn’t guarantee anything.
She laughed when I asked and said ‘nope’. Anyway, a few weeks later, off post, we ran into my Commander, and he actually got a little lippy with me, and then my wife. Actually, swearing, wagging his finger. To the nature of, “I f*ckin told you I need to talk with you. I expect you in my office Monday morning”. I just about had to stop her from smacking him.
I showed up early Monday morning, explained the nonsense to the 1SG, and then told the Commander he wouldn’t be speaking to me or my wife like that again, and left. He absolutely crossed a line, he was absolutely wrong, he had absolutely zero authority to beckon my wife to a meeting with him, and when he was told so (with the 1SG behind me. I needed CAS for that conversation), he ultimately dropped it.
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Maj John Bell
LCDR (Join to see) - When I was a Captain, I told my wife that I did not feel like going to a unit social function, NOT that I wasn't going, just that I did not want to go. She was close to the Barracks XO's wife, and in passing mentioned that I was not looking forward to the function. The XO's wife spoke to the XO.
He called me in and chewed my ass. I politely and respectfully listened, when he was done, I explained to him that I never said that I was not going, and I never intended to go to the function and act like a punctual child. Furthermore it was no more within his authority to make me want to be at a function than it was for him to order me to like broccoli.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, I asked him if he would like the legal clerk to type up the charge sheet. I also reminded him that he was the Barracks XO, not the CO and that as a Company Commander, he was not in my chain of command.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, he told me to get the hell out of his office. He further ordered me not to address this issue with my wife. I explained to him that his authority did not extend into my marriage, but he could bet his bottom dollar that my wife would never break the confidences of our marriage with his wife, or any other military wife again.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, I told him that it was time to take this conversation to the CO's office, or the JAG's office where they could instruct him in the limits of his authority, because I had work to do.
He called me in and chewed my ass. I politely and respectfully listened, when he was done, I explained to him that I never said that I was not going, and I never intended to go to the function and act like a punctual child. Furthermore it was no more within his authority to make me want to be at a function than it was for him to order me to like broccoli.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, I asked him if he would like the legal clerk to type up the charge sheet. I also reminded him that he was the Barracks XO, not the CO and that as a Company Commander, he was not in my chain of command.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, he told me to get the hell out of his office. He further ordered me not to address this issue with my wife. I explained to him that his authority did not extend into my marriage, but he could bet his bottom dollar that my wife would never break the confidences of our marriage with his wife, or any other military wife again.
Five minutes later, when he came up for air, I told him that it was time to take this conversation to the CO's office, or the JAG's office where they could instruct him in the limits of his authority, because I had work to do.
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A&E Network has two shows, The First 48 an Live PD. Every week someone on one of those shows talks themselves into a trip to either jail or prison. My dos centavos, see JAG and lawyer up.
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Comment is edited in lieu of the emotional distress this comment has caused some of you gentlemen who continue to rant and reply out of context. Best of luck to you all.
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CPT (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) you interpreted it once way I interpreted it another. Thank you for your insight nevertheless.
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Maj John Bell
CPT (Join to see) - I suggest you run this hypothetical by a JAG. Your interpretation could potentially place you in hot water. Any service member involved in any potential action under the UCMJ, in any capacity, has the right to seek counsel of a JAG or civilian attorney prior to making a statement. They may not be entitled to legal representation at an article 15 hearing, but they are most certainly are prior to the article 15 hearing. As a company commander, I required it. It was up to the Marine if he/she went to the JAG and said "thanks but no thanks."
I worked in the CG's office as an investigating officer and all I can say is that any officer that discouraged a Marine from seeking counsel had a personal invitation to a loud, one-sided personal conversation with the CG. Any NCO or SNCO who did the same had a similar conversation with the Division Sergeant Major.
The same can be said for any potential action under the civilian justice system.
I worked in the CG's office as an investigating officer and all I can say is that any officer that discouraged a Marine from seeking counsel had a personal invitation to a loud, one-sided personal conversation with the CG. Any NCO or SNCO who did the same had a similar conversation with the Division Sergeant Major.
The same can be said for any potential action under the civilian justice system.
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TSgt (Join to see)
1. I/we did NOT give away our civil rights when enlisting or being appointed. To borrow from no less an officer that General George Washington, “When we assumed the Soldier, we did not lay aside the Citizen. . .” If I’m doing right and taking care of my people, I’m telling them “Stop talking/assert your rights to silence/SFTU, I’m taking you to get Counsel now.”
3. We must obey LAWFUL orders. Orders which violate our, or their, rights are another category all together. I’ll borrow once more. This time, advice from a couple of civilian attorney buddies (one a former prosecutor), one JAG and one cop. Police are NOT your friends and you can do yourself NO favors by answering their questions. EVER. That’s why you, I, and Joe Snuffy would do well to answer no questions without an attorney. EVER. It isn’t possible for you to help yourself by talking. They all stressed this repeatedly so I’m going to take their adamant advice.
3. We must obey LAWFUL orders. Orders which violate our, or their, rights are another category all together. I’ll borrow once more. This time, advice from a couple of civilian attorney buddies (one a former prosecutor), one JAG and one cop. Police are NOT your friends and you can do yourself NO favors by answering their questions. EVER. That’s why you, I, and Joe Snuffy would do well to answer no questions without an attorney. EVER. It isn’t possible for you to help yourself by talking. They all stressed this repeatedly so I’m going to take their adamant advice.
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