Posted on Nov 30, 2021
Can the military take your annual leave away (Christmas block leave) if you refuse to jump?
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A bit of context . When I say refuse to jump , I mean I don't get on the plane at all. Refuse on ground before manafest . I have a back injury and they are trying to force me to jump.
Fort Bragg
Leave
82nd ABN
Career Advice
Career Counselor
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 52
Let's see if I can break this down to its simplest form:
Leave: Commanders are the only one that can approve/deny Leave.
Jump: You are on jump status. You need to jump to remain proficient and be fully mission capable.
Medical: If you have a profile that says no jumping, then you don't jump. If you don't have a profile, then you jump.
So, yes, your Commander can deny your Leave for refusing to get manifested/loaded for jump because you are not mission capable. Of course, I am only guessing this would be the reason why your Leave could be denied. I'm not your Commander so I have no idea what they're thinking.
If you are truly injured with a back injury that you do not want to make worse (and let's be honest, Airborne will eventually screw up your back, your knees, your ankles, your height), then you need to seek out a higher level of medical evaluation. If your PA is not wanting to give you a no jump profile until you are better, then go to your BN Surgeon. Or BDE....or where ever the Surgeon sits. Hell, if there is an orthopedic doctor at your base, see them.
Leave: Commanders are the only one that can approve/deny Leave.
Jump: You are on jump status. You need to jump to remain proficient and be fully mission capable.
Medical: If you have a profile that says no jumping, then you don't jump. If you don't have a profile, then you jump.
So, yes, your Commander can deny your Leave for refusing to get manifested/loaded for jump because you are not mission capable. Of course, I am only guessing this would be the reason why your Leave could be denied. I'm not your Commander so I have no idea what they're thinking.
If you are truly injured with a back injury that you do not want to make worse (and let's be honest, Airborne will eventually screw up your back, your knees, your ankles, your height), then you need to seek out a higher level of medical evaluation. If your PA is not wanting to give you a no jump profile until you are better, then go to your BN Surgeon. Or BDE....or where ever the Surgeon sits. Hell, if there is an orthopedic doctor at your base, see them.
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CW5 Roger Jacobs
I suspect there is more to this situation than volunteered by SPC Nick S. The SFC has made good, valid points. If you have serious back injury, seek more medical advice. Ft Bragg has excellent orthopedic facilities. If you are truly worried about causing more serious damage to your back, you can always terminate jump status and be re-assigned to a non-airborne unit.
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SFC Jerry McLellen
I spent 15 1/2 years at Fort Bragg. 11 1/2 of that in the 82d Abn Div. The Spc is not telling the whole story. If he doesn't want to jump anymore, then terminate. Do try to tell everyone that you are being maltreated.
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Jump refusals are grounds for UCMJ action. You are on Jump status and therefore are required to jump at all unit jumps UNLESS actively on profile. You are likely being processed under article 92 (dereliction of duty) and the commander is the approval and rejector of all leave actions, so yes, they can do that.
A PA isn’t just going to refuse to put you on profile for a back injury if you have one. I’ve been on profile for 2 years for a back injury with 2 surgeries.
Long story short, at unit jumps, you are required to jump for proficiency
A PA isn’t just going to refuse to put you on profile for a back injury if you have one. I’ve been on profile for 2 years for a back injury with 2 surgeries.
Long story short, at unit jumps, you are required to jump for proficiency
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While its been awhile, if you have a profile that says no jumping, then no they can't. If you do not have a profile and the Docs say you are fit for duty then they can do much more, you become a jump refusal and if on status less that 3 years, say goodbye to your wings, also look forward to UCMJ actions(s). If you are a pay loss or coming up on pay loss status you end up on the bad metrics for your unit which is a whole new level if you have no medical get out of jail card. Bottom line is if you are on status, medically cleared and going into pay hurt status you are required to Jump, thats what Paratroopers do, speaking as someone with 253 jumps and more back pain than I can stand some mornings not mention assorted other fun gifts from Status and service we all have to make that choice, Jumping is voluntary the day you decide you have enough its time to leave. I did and I think these still do voluntary terminations of jump status these days.
After reading some of your replies I see that you do not have a medical profile and that your PA is refusing to grant you an extension. You basically have to decide which is more important your back or your leave. Not everyone can suck it up and drive on, you have to understand that Division has to field maximum numbers of qualified Troopers. I have a number of my troops get hurt and decide that jumping was no longer that important, you must also realize you are a grunt and that involves further injury to your back in the long run so this may be your moment of clarity to make some tough choices. Good luck either way.
After reading some of your replies I see that you do not have a medical profile and that your PA is refusing to grant you an extension. You basically have to decide which is more important your back or your leave. Not everyone can suck it up and drive on, you have to understand that Division has to field maximum numbers of qualified Troopers. I have a number of my troops get hurt and decide that jumping was no longer that important, you must also realize you are a grunt and that involves further injury to your back in the long run so this may be your moment of clarity to make some tough choices. Good luck either way.
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I can see you being counseled. Maybe even an Article 15 for failure to follow an order. You should have a profile for the back injury that takes you off jump status. Go see the medical folks!
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Suspended Profile
I'm sure medical can help sort this out. What troubles me is the large number of folks at junior rank who post on here looking for some sort of fix-it-all response. Members here might be helpful, but they don't have the authority your command does. I understand people are sometimes just in need of a friendly shoulder to cry on, or a person willing to share past experiences and allow for some venting. I really do understand. But most of us are just listening ears. It's a good thing to be able to mentor someone, even if it is online and rather impersonal. But as a cautionary tale, remember we are what should be the last resort (NO OFFENSE PEOPLE) for anyone who has an issue with command. Rules and regs change all the time. Status changes. Command is in place to either assist and process or define and investigate complex issues. RP is the post-military equivalent of "Ann Landers or Dear Abby". You will read advice here that is meant solely as support.
It sounds to me that you have some issues you must address, and that means command.
I wish you well. Personally, I wouldn't come within 6 feet of an open hatch while hurtling through the atmosphere at speeds I don't even want to imagine. I'm definitely a grounded person. But I admire the blazes out of anyone who can and wants to do that-our armed forces need such inspired members. If you came to medical and needed to be patched up, I'm your person. But ask me to jump from a perfectly good aircraft flying through space? Oh, hell no! I don't ski for that same reason: Flying downhill on two slippery pieces of fiberglass (or something? On ice? In snow? Nope. Not happening. But that's me.
You'll figure this out. Use the resources available to you. Do what you can but be willing to accept the consequences that might be inevitable. That's what Ann Landers would say. I think. But I'm willing to bet she never had to exit an aircraft other than by the usual and customary ways: Stairs. With handrails. (RIP, Ms. Landers. Your advice still applies to the masses who need some guidance).
In this case, your guidance needs to come from the appropriate sources within your command. Good luck, I hope things work out for you. Before Christmas.
It sounds to me that you have some issues you must address, and that means command.
I wish you well. Personally, I wouldn't come within 6 feet of an open hatch while hurtling through the atmosphere at speeds I don't even want to imagine. I'm definitely a grounded person. But I admire the blazes out of anyone who can and wants to do that-our armed forces need such inspired members. If you came to medical and needed to be patched up, I'm your person. But ask me to jump from a perfectly good aircraft flying through space? Oh, hell no! I don't ski for that same reason: Flying downhill on two slippery pieces of fiberglass (or something? On ice? In snow? Nope. Not happening. But that's me.
You'll figure this out. Use the resources available to you. Do what you can but be willing to accept the consequences that might be inevitable. That's what Ann Landers would say. I think. But I'm willing to bet she never had to exit an aircraft other than by the usual and customary ways: Stairs. With handrails. (RIP, Ms. Landers. Your advice still applies to the masses who need some guidance).
In this case, your guidance needs to come from the appropriate sources within your command. Good luck, I hope things work out for you. Before Christmas.
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Commanders have the ability approve/deny leave and missing movement or refusing a training evolution could fall under having your leave denied.
Are you on profile, light or limited duty? If you didn’t have something on paper pulling you medically it just looks like you blew off the event.
If you did have something on paper and they tried to force you anyway you need to talk to your leadership and your unit medical folks
Are you on profile, light or limited duty? If you didn’t have something on paper pulling you medically it just looks like you blew off the event.
If you did have something on paper and they tried to force you anyway you need to talk to your leadership and your unit medical folks
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
SPC (Join to see) I’m sorry to hear about the injury but I’m assuming the Army is the same as the Marine Corps requiring profiles or chits to be current if you are trying to be excused from training. Sounds like you have a legit reason and it should be a slam dunk at medical but you have to understand how many folks pull that shiz to scam out of training events. Happens all the time.
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SPC (Join to see)
SSgt Christophe Murphy I completely understand. I honestly just want treatment , not another injury. The whole process is frustrating
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
SPC (Join to see) oh I get it. I was medically retired due to injuries received. But you have to make sure all of your paperwork is current or it will bite you in the tail
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Suspended Profile
SGT Dan Gray,
good advice. But please lay off the saying, "glorified nurse". *(rant mode=ON).
One of us may one day have your life or the lives of your loved one in our "glorified hands". Nurses work hard, because we care about shit like saving lives, healing bodies (and souls), cleaning up the messes people can turn themselves into because "It looked like fun". Nurses are some of the most attentive, caring, altruistic, educated, dedicated, and underpaid workers in this messed up world. Next time you get a boo-boo trying to fix your chainsaw, go see your neighborhood tire store dudes and see if they can help you out. Or, you know, you could ask a "glorified nurse", maybe a PA, to put you back together. We don't insult you or what you do for a living. Don't you dare try to badmouth us. Nurses. We're cool because we know stuff. And we, as well as PA's are well educated and trained. If our jobs were easy or fun, everyone would want to do what we do. Very few actually can.
*Rant mode, off (for now).
good advice. But please lay off the saying, "glorified nurse". *(rant mode=ON).
One of us may one day have your life or the lives of your loved one in our "glorified hands". Nurses work hard, because we care about shit like saving lives, healing bodies (and souls), cleaning up the messes people can turn themselves into because "It looked like fun". Nurses are some of the most attentive, caring, altruistic, educated, dedicated, and underpaid workers in this messed up world. Next time you get a boo-boo trying to fix your chainsaw, go see your neighborhood tire store dudes and see if they can help you out. Or, you know, you could ask a "glorified nurse", maybe a PA, to put you back together. We don't insult you or what you do for a living. Don't you dare try to badmouth us. Nurses. We're cool because we know stuff. And we, as well as PA's are well educated and trained. If our jobs were easy or fun, everyone would want to do what we do. Very few actually can.
*Rant mode, off (for now).
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Do you have a valid profile, If yes, show it to the S3 Air. If not then you will jump or lose your wings and be transferred to leg land.
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IF you have a profile for your back that has specific restrictions, then I would opine that you cannot be made to jump. I don't believe you can be punished either, but as for leave - always at the commander's discretion. If you're refused Christmas (block) leave to perform duties not restricted by your profile, allowing full performing troops to take leave, that's something the CO can mandate. On it's face, it does seem chickensh**, BUT there's some logic to it as someone has to be there as CQ for example.
If I had to make the decision, I'd certainly let fully functioning soldiers take leave before you - no offense. I'd try however, to compromise and give you leave afterwards and tie it into scheduled days off to give you a bit more time.
If I had to make the decision, I'd certainly let fully functioning soldiers take leave before you - no offense. I'd try however, to compromise and give you leave afterwards and tie it into scheduled days off to give you a bit more time.
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Simple, as a commander I can deny your leave for any and all reasons. It is not a right it is a privilege. That being said I would only ever deny holiday bock leaves for soldiers that had shown a significant pattern of misconduct, or were nearing the completion of their chapter process. Unless you have painted yourself out as a troublemaker and have lost the confidence of your chain of command you should have had your leave packet approved.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see)
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30018-AR_600-8-10-000-WEB-1.pdf I utilized this and my Brigades SJA to draft and publish my leave and pass policy in accordance with my Commander and the Brigade Commanders published policies. Pretty sure all good commanders do something similar before publishing their policies.
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30018-AR_600-8-10-000-WEB-1.pdf I utilized this and my Brigades SJA to draft and publish my leave and pass policy in accordance with my Commander and the Brigade Commanders published policies. Pretty sure all good commanders do something similar before publishing their policies.
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Profiles are not subjective. Just because your back hurts, doesn't warrant a profile. In all my years in the Army, I never came across a PA that would deny a profile for a legitimate injury. If you don't want to jump, transfer.
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