Posted on Sep 15, 2015
Did you hear about the Barista's Decision to Enforce a Policy Goes Viral?
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Did you hear about the Barista's Decision to Enforce a Policy Goes Viral?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/baristas-decision-enforce-policy-goes-viral-frank-eliason?trk=pulse-det-nav_art
I don't normally post these type of discussions, but this speaks to the lack of respect this country has for our law enforcement personnel and a generation that is growing up very disrespectful in my opinion. I don't drink Starbucks either!
RP Members could this employee have made an exception or was she right in the way she handled this? How could it have been handled? Your thoughts?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/baristas-decision-enforce-policy-goes-viral-frank-eliason?trk=pulse-det-nav_art
I don't normally post these type of discussions, but this speaks to the lack of respect this country has for our law enforcement personnel and a generation that is growing up very disrespectful in my opinion. I don't drink Starbucks either!
RP Members could this employee have made an exception or was she right in the way she handled this? How could it have been handled? Your thoughts?
What Would You Do
Police
Law Enforcement
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Generation
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs I had not heard about this. I believe there is a lack of respect for authority in general. As long as the policy is being applied to all equally then there isn't an argument. If it is being applied against Officers only then there is an issue. Keep in mind there are also rumors that are started that become Urban folklore truths.
https://news.starbucks.com/views/myths-facts-military-donations
https://news.starbucks.com/views/myths-facts-military-donations
Starbucks Support of the Troops/Military
On behalf of Starbucks more than 200,000 dedicated partners (employees), we want to set the record straight on an old rumor concerning our company’s lack of support for the military and our troops. This rumor, dating back to 2004, claims a lack of Starbucks support for the U.S. Marines, and has evolved to include a lack of support for the British Royal Marines. In both instances, the rumor is not, and has never been, true.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
CPT (Join to see) Right on target with this statement Ma'am, " I believe there is a lack of respect for authority in general.".
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SrA Edward Vong
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
Off Topic
Not a fan of coffee anymore either. After the popularity of Jamba Juice, I prefer to drink fruit smoothies, or even tea.
Off Topic
Not a fan of coffee anymore either. After the popularity of Jamba Juice, I prefer to drink fruit smoothies, or even tea.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SrA Edward Vong I quit coffe about 5 years ago (3 day headache, but caffeine free now). World of difference
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs - While she may have been "technically correct", she chose to make an exhibition out of it, which took away any support I would have for her position. The officer asked to use the bathroom. All she had to do was say, in a respectful/polite manner, that it was for paying customers only. When she decided to shout and make a spectacle of herself, she lost the benefit of the doubt and support of any clear-thinking people.
When I was a young Captain at Ft Benning, assigned as Military Police Operations Officer, but working as the Military Police Duty Officer one Saturday night, the Desk Sergeant told me that an on-duty MP had called in and stated that he had been refused entry into an enlisted club on post by a bouncer. He stated that he had simply stopped there to go to the latrine and so advised the bouncer, who refused his entry to the club. The MP departed and, since the club was the only public facility open at that time in his patrol area, relieved himself outside (out of the public view).
I went to the club and asked to see the manager to discuss the incident. The manager supported his bouncer and stated "we don't allow MPs in the club unless we call them". I told the manager that Military Police on duty are authorized to enter any building, facility or establishment, to include off-limits establishments. I further informed him that it was our policy for uniformed MPs to not enter clubs, unless called, however, they could not be denied entry. He argued with me and stated he would not change his policy. In his presence, I called the MP Desk Sergeant and told him that I wanted a uniformed MP Patrol to conduct a walk-thru of the club every hour until the establishment closed and that anybody who refused entry of the MPs would be apprehended for interfering with the duties of the Military Police. I left after warning the manager not to test me.
The MPs walked through the club every hour that night with no incident. On Monday, the Installation Club Officer (or something like that) called me to discuss the issue. I explained what had happened and told him that I was just making a point. I advised him that I had reinstated the policy of no uniformed MPs in the clubs and it would remain so, unless we had another incident. He agreed to inform his managers that MPs could enter the clubs and we had no further incidents. I would be less than truthful if I did not state that I did have the MPs test that, infrequently, never to experience a refusal of entry again.
When I was a young Captain at Ft Benning, assigned as Military Police Operations Officer, but working as the Military Police Duty Officer one Saturday night, the Desk Sergeant told me that an on-duty MP had called in and stated that he had been refused entry into an enlisted club on post by a bouncer. He stated that he had simply stopped there to go to the latrine and so advised the bouncer, who refused his entry to the club. The MP departed and, since the club was the only public facility open at that time in his patrol area, relieved himself outside (out of the public view).
I went to the club and asked to see the manager to discuss the incident. The manager supported his bouncer and stated "we don't allow MPs in the club unless we call them". I told the manager that Military Police on duty are authorized to enter any building, facility or establishment, to include off-limits establishments. I further informed him that it was our policy for uniformed MPs to not enter clubs, unless called, however, they could not be denied entry. He argued with me and stated he would not change his policy. In his presence, I called the MP Desk Sergeant and told him that I wanted a uniformed MP Patrol to conduct a walk-thru of the club every hour until the establishment closed and that anybody who refused entry of the MPs would be apprehended for interfering with the duties of the Military Police. I left after warning the manager not to test me.
The MPs walked through the club every hour that night with no incident. On Monday, the Installation Club Officer (or something like that) called me to discuss the issue. I explained what had happened and told him that I was just making a point. I advised him that I had reinstated the policy of no uniformed MPs in the clubs and it would remain so, unless we had another incident. He agreed to inform his managers that MPs could enter the clubs and we had no further incidents. I would be less than truthful if I did not state that I did have the MPs test that, infrequently, never to experience a refusal of entry again.
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
Maj Richard "Ernie" Rowlette - Actually, the terms used were "loud", "loud manner" and "loudly". Nowhere did it say "in a voice loud enough for others to hear", as you sated. Regardless, I think there is little doubt she spoke more loudly than necessary for the conversation to simply be between the two of them. She wanted to put in a show and show everyone what an idiot she was.
Am I biased... yes, of course and, obviously, so are you. I see nothing that indicates the officer was "grumpy", as you characterize him (or her). What she did was technically OK, but certainly not OK by any other measure.
I do agree with you that we have one officer's word against NOTHING, because, in my view, that is exactly what she is.
Am I biased... yes, of course and, obviously, so are you. I see nothing that indicates the officer was "grumpy", as you characterize him (or her). What she did was technically OK, but certainly not OK by any other measure.
I do agree with you that we have one officer's word against NOTHING, because, in my view, that is exactly what she is.
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I could spend hours on this article. Hours. The real question is where to start.
First, let's look at the Company Policy of allowing restroom usage to Paying Customers only. Honestly, that's fairly reasonable. They are a business, and the restrooms are investment, and their employees do have to clean them.
Second, following that is the person (nameless at this point) asking for an exception to said policy. We talk about "maintaining the standard" a lot on this forum. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept, is the mantra.
Now, should the standard change based on additional factors? Well, of course there is going to be grey area. We're not robots. However, human judgement about what is reasonable deviation from the standard is the issue. Should a cop get to use the restroom even if he's not paying? What about a pregnant woman? What about a toddler? What about a homeless man? A great phrase I picked up was the "Parade of horribles" (Shameless Plug, RP Podcast Club: Reasonable Doubt) which coincides with my longstanding debate tactic of "Take the argument to the Absurd. If if can't survive absurdity, it isn't a good argument.
That's really what is at play here. Does the virtue of being a cop, justify an exception or deviation from written policy?
But let's shift gears for a second.
What about how it was handled? The Barrista aka Coffee Girl, because let's call a duck a duck, called the non-paying customer out on his request, in what could arguably be a blunt and impolite manner, citing company policy (or what we would call Regulation). Sure it lacked Tact, but it wasn't "technically" wrong. She was "holding the line." She was "protecting the tab/badge" so to speak (oh I know I'm gonna piss people off with that metaphor).
Now, why would she do that?
Perhaps... just perhaps, the uniform or those wearing it have not been self-policing (no pun intended) enough, and have become viewed less as members of the community, less as Sheep-Dogs, and more as Wolves. When our "Protectors" are viewed (perception is reality) in a Predatory light, which is becoming more and more common with the Police, the little courtesies... the little allowances... go away.
I'm not saying it's right. It isn't... but it is understandable. Rather than being "one of us" the police are turning into "them" and "them" don't get favors. They don't get courtesy.
Edit: Spelling
First, let's look at the Company Policy of allowing restroom usage to Paying Customers only. Honestly, that's fairly reasonable. They are a business, and the restrooms are investment, and their employees do have to clean them.
Second, following that is the person (nameless at this point) asking for an exception to said policy. We talk about "maintaining the standard" a lot on this forum. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept, is the mantra.
Now, should the standard change based on additional factors? Well, of course there is going to be grey area. We're not robots. However, human judgement about what is reasonable deviation from the standard is the issue. Should a cop get to use the restroom even if he's not paying? What about a pregnant woman? What about a toddler? What about a homeless man? A great phrase I picked up was the "Parade of horribles" (Shameless Plug, RP Podcast Club: Reasonable Doubt) which coincides with my longstanding debate tactic of "Take the argument to the Absurd. If if can't survive absurdity, it isn't a good argument.
That's really what is at play here. Does the virtue of being a cop, justify an exception or deviation from written policy?
But let's shift gears for a second.
What about how it was handled? The Barrista aka Coffee Girl, because let's call a duck a duck, called the non-paying customer out on his request, in what could arguably be a blunt and impolite manner, citing company policy (or what we would call Regulation). Sure it lacked Tact, but it wasn't "technically" wrong. She was "holding the line." She was "protecting the tab/badge" so to speak (oh I know I'm gonna piss people off with that metaphor).
Now, why would she do that?
Perhaps... just perhaps, the uniform or those wearing it have not been self-policing (no pun intended) enough, and have become viewed less as members of the community, less as Sheep-Dogs, and more as Wolves. When our "Protectors" are viewed (perception is reality) in a Predatory light, which is becoming more and more common with the Police, the little courtesies... the little allowances... go away.
I'm not saying it's right. It isn't... but it is understandable. Rather than being "one of us" the police are turning into "them" and "them" don't get favors. They don't get courtesy.
Edit: Spelling
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS You bring up some very valid points and further discussion. I think that they are both wrong. The police officer for the post - grow up and be an adult and the worker for not saying her is a complimentary piece of banana bread, go ahead and use the restroom while explaining the policy quietly to the officer. Manners on one hand and maturity on the other. That's my quick reaction to the incident!
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
COL Mikel J. Burroughs I agree. I always looked at "Cops in a restaurant" as one of the best crime deterrents there are. You never hear of Cop Bars being robbed (twice).
I think like Maj Richard "Ernie" Rowlette said, the truth of the incident is probably somewhere in the middle.
But, something caused this massive shift, and it wasn't 100% of police being 100% professional 100% of the time. We're judged by the worst among us.
I think like Maj Richard "Ernie" Rowlette said, the truth of the incident is probably somewhere in the middle.
But, something caused this massive shift, and it wasn't 100% of police being 100% professional 100% of the time. We're judged by the worst among us.
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I would have expected to hear the same story, same scenario if a civilian did it: entering this Starbucks from a Home Depot or something like that. If cops are afraid of being disrespected then maybe they should look over why they are a cop again. People aren't required to respect anyone. If she wants to disrespect a cop, then that's fine, but why this goes viral is beyond me. That cop is a person just like you and I, and why people think we should offer respect based on a job instead of just good conduct blows my mind. Now, would I respect a cop? Sure. Because of the uniform, no. Because he is a human. So really there are two issues here. One, the cop had to use the bathroom, two, disrespect. As a leader, I wouldn't waste too much time trying to figure this one out. It's a small issue. People need to wake up and realize that this is the real world and if a Cop cant pee at a Starbucks, the world will keep turning. The cop probably wasn't too mad about it. He probably was polite and left in good terms and found another place to go to the bathroom. Some bystander was probably the one that was crying on the inside because people aren't as nice in real life as they are in movies. Well I'm sorry America, but this isn't Andy Griffith, this is real life.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; Technically the decision was correct.
The execution was poor, staff selection was bad, the level of instruction provided to the worker was even worse.
Would there be the same furor over "Policeman Demands That Company Change Policy To Suit Him."?
Unfortunately "Good help is hard to find these days".
The execution was poor, staff selection was bad, the level of instruction provided to the worker was even worse.
Would there be the same furor over "Policeman Demands That Company Change Policy To Suit Him."?
Unfortunately "Good help is hard to find these days".
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What happened to the days where LEOs would go up to a cashier to pay for a cup of coffee and they would be told that coffee is free for 1st responders? The US has gotten to the point where they treat LEOs as the enemy. Yes there are some bad apples in the profession but which profession doesn't have there share of turds? I know that we as LEOs have to be setting the example and do what is right. But when there are calls to kill LEOs and others just treat them like crap is just criminal.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SGM Steve Wettstein Roger that! I owe you a "vote up" tomorrow - all out of ammunitionn for today Steve!
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I enjoy coffee very much COL Mikel J. Burroughs; but, I stopped getting coffee from Starbucks many years ago. The company tends to support very liberal causes which is their right and took my business elsewhere.
She may have been correct in her understanding of Starbucks typical intercity policy. However loudly announcing that non-paying customers can not use the bathroom repeatedly was uncalled for.
I am not surprised at the attitude of the barista in the Philadelphia Starbucks. She seems to be somebody who would have been protesting with the Occupy movement and other movements that bite the hands that protect them.
She may have been correct in her understanding of Starbucks typical intercity policy. However loudly announcing that non-paying customers can not use the bathroom repeatedly was uncalled for.
I am not surprised at the attitude of the barista in the Philadelphia Starbucks. She seems to be somebody who would have been protesting with the Occupy movement and other movements that bite the hands that protect them.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
LTC Stephen F. Sir, I totally agree with you on the fact that she said that the bathroom was for paying customers loud enough for everyone to hear. But of course if she was having problems with a customer she would be wanting the police there. A lot of the younger generation just don't get what we (LEOs) have to do day to day. It's not like he was asking for a free cup of coffee or anything...just to use the damn bathroom.
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She was wrong for handling it that way. We ran into the same issue in downtown Oakland at a Subway Restaurant. We were in full tac gear, she had nobody in the store. "Paying customers only". High crime area, people hate the police. It is what it is.
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PO1 Forest Bell
If you were in full tac gear I wouldn't want you in any store I was running either. It scares away possible paying customers. It's one of the main reasons people don't have much respect for police anymore. They no longer look like police but military and quite often act like gang thugs when all dressed up like military. Police are civilians and should look like it!
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CMSgt James Nolan
PO1 Forest Bell
I believe that your opinion is misplaced. However, you are entitled to it. Think about this though:
**The liberal media has blown a few situations way out of control, and painted the police with a broad brush. As a result, the criminal element has become emboldened and more dangerous. And now, the guys going after police and shooting at them are being lauded by entire sections of society. Drug dealing, pimping, robbing are considered jobs by families of these guys.
Regarding GEAR; As a few examples, I wear a tourniquet on my gear, it is for me. I wear it because EMS sometimes is just not there fast enough. I wear plates, because 3 guys I knew were shot and killed in broad daylight by a guy wanted on a misdemeanor. The rounds he fired from his AK47 on full auto went right through their body armor. I also, situation dictating, carry a rifle, because experience has shown that sometimes-and you will find this hard to believe, we are at a position of disadvantage. I carry spare magazines and additional hand cuffs, because if they are needed, nobody will be bringing them to me. I make the decisions about how much or little we will wear, and each investigation is different.
That being said, TAC Gear is situational, and not every situation calls for it, but when it does, you wear it. And when you have to hit the head, guess what, you still have it on. That does not mean that I am threatening to customers, because I don't go in with my ass on my shoulders. I am not a uniformed police officer, I go after the folks who do not want to get caught and who give jack$hit about the fact that I am armed-because they are too.
If you have personally encountered police acting like thugs, then you have encountered bad cops. They exist, big surprise, because they are a cross section of society. And we, the good cops do every thing we can to get rid of them from our profession.
When is the last time that you were shot at from an adjacent building because you were trying to talk to someone and were recognized for the job that you do? That is why law enforcement tactics and equipment have changed through the years. I would love to live and work in Mayberry, where everyone treats everyone with respect and dignity and there are no rapists, murderers and thugs. Sadly, I do not live or work there.
It does bother me that there is a growing feeling of distrust. I have experienced it over the last 3 decades in this profession. If I had the answers, I would certainly share them. I do not, all I can do as a professional, is my job. Treat people as well as possible and do my damn best to ensure that nobody is hurt on my watch. The bad guys do not feel the same way.
I believe that your opinion is misplaced. However, you are entitled to it. Think about this though:
**The liberal media has blown a few situations way out of control, and painted the police with a broad brush. As a result, the criminal element has become emboldened and more dangerous. And now, the guys going after police and shooting at them are being lauded by entire sections of society. Drug dealing, pimping, robbing are considered jobs by families of these guys.
Regarding GEAR; As a few examples, I wear a tourniquet on my gear, it is for me. I wear it because EMS sometimes is just not there fast enough. I wear plates, because 3 guys I knew were shot and killed in broad daylight by a guy wanted on a misdemeanor. The rounds he fired from his AK47 on full auto went right through their body armor. I also, situation dictating, carry a rifle, because experience has shown that sometimes-and you will find this hard to believe, we are at a position of disadvantage. I carry spare magazines and additional hand cuffs, because if they are needed, nobody will be bringing them to me. I make the decisions about how much or little we will wear, and each investigation is different.
That being said, TAC Gear is situational, and not every situation calls for it, but when it does, you wear it. And when you have to hit the head, guess what, you still have it on. That does not mean that I am threatening to customers, because I don't go in with my ass on my shoulders. I am not a uniformed police officer, I go after the folks who do not want to get caught and who give jack$hit about the fact that I am armed-because they are too.
If you have personally encountered police acting like thugs, then you have encountered bad cops. They exist, big surprise, because they are a cross section of society. And we, the good cops do every thing we can to get rid of them from our profession.
When is the last time that you were shot at from an adjacent building because you were trying to talk to someone and were recognized for the job that you do? That is why law enforcement tactics and equipment have changed through the years. I would love to live and work in Mayberry, where everyone treats everyone with respect and dignity and there are no rapists, murderers and thugs. Sadly, I do not live or work there.
It does bother me that there is a growing feeling of distrust. I have experienced it over the last 3 decades in this profession. If I had the answers, I would certainly share them. I do not, all I can do as a professional, is my job. Treat people as well as possible and do my damn best to ensure that nobody is hurt on my watch. The bad guys do not feel the same way.
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PO1 Forest Bell
I won't disagree with what you said because as far as I can tell it's accurate but there are people that cops dressed out in full military gear do scare away from shops. I've seen it and I've experienced it first hand. Far too many cops these days seem to think that simply because they are cops they can do what ever they want to do. That's a big reason people do not trust them anymore. I'm certainly not saying all are like that. Most are just people trying to do a suck job but reality is reality. I personally don't trust most officers anymore and I have very valid reasons for it. And just to let you know, I've never been arrested for breaking any laws but that doesn't change my opinion in the least. Just to give you an example.. I had an officer threaten me with his gun just a couple of months ago when I asked him what he was doing trespassing in my back yard! It turned out when I could finally got him to say where he was supposed to be that he was supposed to be at a home disturbance 4 houses down the street. That idiot couldn't read house numbers and he is a cop???? I get my life threatened because that jackass couldn't read house numbers???? And you wonder why people don't trust or respect cops? That is just one example... I can give you more if you like.
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CMSgt James Nolan
PO1 Forest Bell I don't doubt that you have had a few bad experiences, Hell, I have as well (on duty as well), so I know that you can. The incident with the backyard, they have to be careful about which house they are responding to, and then it is all about how they handle the encounters with the public....
I am sorry that you have a poor opinion of law enforcement, because that means that your opinion will continue to spread. And the next encounter you have with a cop will start out in a negative light because of that preconceived notion.
When I am talking with people about type of cases I work, I am talking with people who are usually directly related to bad guys (family/spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/drug dealer/felon etc). And, they really do hate. I have to work to earn trust just below hate, because they have information I want. Sometimes I get it, sometimes not. But I always tell them, that they have not met or dealt with me, try and start fresh. Give it a shot.
Anyways, here is to your next encounter being a positive one.
I am sorry that you have a poor opinion of law enforcement, because that means that your opinion will continue to spread. And the next encounter you have with a cop will start out in a negative light because of that preconceived notion.
When I am talking with people about type of cases I work, I am talking with people who are usually directly related to bad guys (family/spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/drug dealer/felon etc). And, they really do hate. I have to work to earn trust just below hate, because they have information I want. Sometimes I get it, sometimes not. But I always tell them, that they have not met or dealt with me, try and start fresh. Give it a shot.
Anyways, here is to your next encounter being a positive one.
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Never Good PR telling a Cop he can't Cop a Squat without buying something.
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CMSgt James Nolan
No it isn't. And, if the store wants to occasionally give a guy who is cold/wet/tired a cup of coffee, there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is that some, not all, some, come to expect it to be a free cup.
When I was in uniform and working the street, I always had money out, ready to pay. If a free cup was offered, I put the dollar into the tip jar (of course, now it is 2 dollars...).
When I was in uniform and working the street, I always had money out, ready to pay. If a free cup was offered, I put the dollar into the tip jar (of course, now it is 2 dollars...).
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As a career LEO, I'm tired of officers expecting courtesies and handouts. If it was a store policy, than that's that! Rules are rules! Become a paying customer, or go find somewhere else to pee. There is a serious lack of professionalism in the profession right now. Officers are letting the scumbags of America get under their skin, and coming off looking foolish for it. I could go on and on about how I feel about the #bluelivesmatter stuff... but I'll be here all night giving myself high blood pressure. Being a civil servant, especially a police officer, doesn't guarantee or promise a hero's treatment. Get off your high horse. Worry less about the BS and what you think you are OWED, and focus more on training, community relations, and the proper execution of your duties.
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