Posted on Oct 24, 2017
Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned officers?
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As SGM Marquez stated, replying with a yes Sir or yes Ma'am is the best response. I have been around cadets that have been put in my units within the National Guard since I first got in almost 10 years ago. Some were the I know everything type because they were college students and others have been really cool. Remember that they are taught by officers and mentored by NCO's. When it gets turned around is when they are going in the wrong direction.
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Technically yes they do; BUT, (there's always a but) if the cadet has the sense that God gave a goat he won't attempt to exert that rank, especially with an SFC, MSG or a SGM. who may have more time in the chow line than the cadet has in uniform. I knew a CFB who did just that when we were training WP cadets to be artillerymen during their summer training at Ft Sill back in 1969. A cadet was critical of how a howitzer COS laid in his 105mm. The COS kept his peace but the CFB without even raising his voice or the use of vernacular told that cadet that he barely knew enough to know the muzzle band from the breech block and that he should refrain from showing his lack of judgement to those who know better. The cadet was about to respond when I stepped in and advised him to let it be and that I, as the safety officer for that piece, was under no such constraints as was the Chief of Firing Battery.
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LTC James McElreath
That NCO used the proper technique to retake his position as instructor and putting the cadet in his place as a student! That NCO was definitely a true professional and can handle himself as such! It is the manner the NCO used that demonstrated how to shut down an person and make them listen to the instructor as they might learn something from him. He possessed the awareness of his audience that he could have them stop their activity and listen, no matter the rank.
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LTC Ronald Stephens
LTC James McElreath - Trainees sometimes forget that the instructor(s) command the class, regardless of rank.
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While this looks like an Army issue, in the Navy they outrank no one. At OCS, a candidate is paid E-5 money until he/she is commissioned. Unsure what the Naval Academy tells their "students" nor what any ROTC unit tells their cadets. We all know that any JO worth his/her new stripe keeps their mouths shut and their senior NCO real close. But that's the real world.
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LTC James McElreath
The advice from which you spoke was spot on! No matter the service, if you want to stay around awhile keep quiet and your NCO will train you to become a real officer.
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LOL! I always showed respect to anyone in uniform (still do) BUT always referred to them as "Cadet-Lastname"... had one once insist that I salute him all call him sir... my response was polite, but unwaivering, and said I would gladly extend that courtesy once they were duly commisioned, gave them my immediate supervisors name if they wanted to 'report' me, and then went about my duties. They will learn, sooner, or later - but they will indeed learn... or wash out). Almost all Cadets I have interacted with were professional and good men that most certainly went on to be fine leaders... we do them no service by either belittling them nor by placating their egos. IMHO.
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This question seems to pop up now and again, and I think it really stems from NCO's who are either butt-hurt, have poor leadership skills or just too big an ego. AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. This includes CSM, but we all know a CSM has a special place in the chain of command and also usually are seasoned enough to know how to avoid this "thorn". Cadet's like all new leader need mentoring and that mentoring include showing the appropriate decorum and respect due to the rank.
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You're probably talking about the cadets who come to a unit for two weeks or so in the summer after their advance camp training. They are under contract and technically have rank. But that's the first time most of them experience the real Army. Having volunteered for that duty as a cadet 100 years ago, I remember the cadets are highly encouraged by the leadership to "get involved", "take charge", etc. The whole thing is a little awkward, because no one really knows the protocols. But this is them training to be officers (in 9 more months). I'm not sure why the conversations about who outranks whom are taking place at all. The only advice I would dare to give would be to just set an example and be as professional as you can. It's just training for them. Personally, I think the LTs and battery commanders should be screwing with them more, policing them up, getting them in line and calling them out when they screw up. Maybe that happens, but I don't remember it being the case.
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Cadets and Midshipmen are in the right spot for their station in life. At the bottom of the officer ranks and positioned to receive the best wisdom of the enlisted personnel they will lead someday. As such, they deserve wise counsel from above and below. If that counsel comes from a crusty and battle tested MSGT or CPO in the form of a private session, all the better. Save the theatre and popcorn for the ones who refuse to learn from their elders...
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Cadets in Jump school didn't out rank any active service personnel, and their were 300+ students, they were college students studying to be an officer in the services. That's just my opinion, but they did outrank each other in ROTC.
Also, no one in Jump school was addressed with rank, but the officers were called by the Cadre as ,"Sir", we had from LTC to 2nd LT in our ranks.
Also, no one in Jump school was addressed with rank, but the officers were called by the Cadre as ,"Sir", we had from LTC to 2nd LT in our ranks.
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LTC Stephen F.
FYI my friend SGT Carl Blas
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
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Not in a million years. They became NCOs because of experience while a cadet (not yet an officer) has none. I would always want to have as a company commander a seasons NCO over a cadet who has yet to prove himself.
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