Do I need to render a salute to an officer when my hands are occupied?

Maj Gail Lofdahl - hadn't thought about it in years but I still do the same, born out for almost 30 years and still try to keep my right hand free

I would like to just say that this LTC might not have the best interest of an enlistedman in mind here. Firstly no. Article 117 of the UCMJ paves the way for the exception of rendering a salute (safety, performing a task, etc) which covers carrying something like equipment in both hands as being an exception.

Hand something to the CSM so HE can't salute, though? Sorry "Sir" but I'm afraid I'd be a little more concerned with upsetting the CSM and getting HIM in trouble. I've generally found that when you have your CSM's back, he has yours. Never met an officer without "Warrant" in front of it where that was true.

Most CSMs I know would not take a mug so a soldier could salute. If he did he would pour it out before he handed it back. He would say this is corrective training.

Common sense is sometimes so rare it almost qualifies as a super power.

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff I was at the hospital and on crutches when a butter bar went off on me for not saluting. Unknown to him there was a Brigadier General walking up behind him. After the General got through I promise that LT never did that again. There are always exceptions to every rule! Even in the military.

forbidden? No. I never was told or heard that till just now.

Air Force Major and Chief would ask if I needed help carrying the junk, instead of being shitheads about it.

Capt George Wolf - Good one.....but as much as I LOVE coffee, it would have been in my other hand.

I detect maybe a slight bit of anger here. I'm assuming some unit spaced themselves out by about 20 meters and walked past you single-file causing you to keep your salute up for 20 mins?

SGT Michael Wells III - I got chew out by an ensign for not rendering a salute when I had books under both arms. Courtesy and understanding works both ways.

When I was an ensign, I would not have expected someone to drop everything to salute me. In fact, at no time would I have expected that.

SFC Derrick Hardison - I believe the CSMwas correct and SM was blatantly trying to keep from saluting. This was the seconf time according to her. That indicates to me There were at least two Sr NCOs enforcing the interretationof the rule.Sm failed to correct problem getting herself in trouble. How hard is it to put binder under arm and cup being hels by as little as one finger. If binder to large to do that carry in ib front of you and use both hands to carry it. Coffee cup is SM problem.

SFC Derrick Hardison - Note that the original poster admits that this is a recurring issue of being corrected for failing to salute while carrying small trivial items in both hands. It might just be that this is her habit, but the fact that it keeps happening combined with her whining here would leave me strongly believing that her habit of carrying small items in each hand is deliberate specifically to create a confrontation where she can show how much smarter she is than everyone around her. The regulation is quite clear and she is quite clearly violating it. Once is an innocent mistake, twice is deliberate.

I recall when an Airman came out of the BX clearly distraught about a family matter who passed a 2nd Lt. without saluting. Oh brother. The 2nd Lt. with his GOLDEN bars called him out, LOUDLY. The Airman realized what he'd done and saluted properly and apologized profusely.

But that wasn't enough to satisfy the Lieutenant's hurt ego. He publicly chewed out the Airman unmercifully. After the reprimand, the Airman saluted and apologized again as the Lieutenant walked off in a huff.

I had witnessed the scene and felt the Lieutenant was way out of line in the manner he had treated the Airman. So I walked over to the Airman to talk to him. Well, he certainly didn't forget to properly salute this Captain.

I explained that the Lieutenant was correct to reprimand him, but that I thought it was too harsh considering the circumstances. Then I asked the Airman if he needed any help. He mentioned he needed to get to his wife quickly so I offered him a ride. But he had a car. So I reminded him to be careful and he saluted me and left.

As I left the BX, I ran into the Lieutenant. As he saluted me, very properly, by the way, I told him I wanted to talk to him about the incident. I explained that he had failed to see the Airman was under some type of stress, but that he was still quite right to correct the Airman for not saluting. Yet I felt his conduct was not that of a GENTLEMAN. It should have been a quick firm reprimand and then an inquiry to see if the Airman needed help. He agreed and thanked me. I hope I taught a young officer what it meant to be in a superior position, and ready to help fellow Airman in need.

Yep. It's one thing to be encumbered by heavy equipment or baggage. A coffee mug, though? If you can find a way to salute, do it. Most officers won't get bent out of shape if you don't, but the attempt will be appreciated. (Also, a SECOND reprimand? One should be plenty!

CPT William Jones

Perhaps this is why a lot of military personnel is incompetent and inefficient, because a lot of people focuses in silly insignificant stuff instead of real, important things.

SPC (Join to see)
It’s stupid nitnoid bullshit like this that I’m glad I was smart enough to carry my assault pack with whatever documents and caffeine provisions I required. I did that so I wouldn’t have to listen to any crybaby nonsense about not saluting when my hands were full of stuff. I guess some people just require the recognition to validate themselves regardless of what the regulation states.

CPT William Jones - That mentality is the reason why there was a retention problem when I was in...seems petty and the mission should always come first, not stroking some officer's fragile ego.

But you never got written up for it. Not rendering a salute though will.

MAJ Javier Rivera sir, respectfully, I believe that you may be misinterpreting what the SGT wrote.

The regulation states that you are to render courtesies unless your hands are encumbered, a binder and a mug is far from encumbered. Crossroad the mug, render customs, and move out. The spirit of the doctrine is that if you are perhaps carrying a large parcel, such as a mail delivery box, and cannot render courtesies practically.

The CSM would be the best judge here, and the fact that the CSM took time to correct her tends to suggest that the SGT was in the wrong.

This exact scenario was gone over when I was in training, not sure about everyone else. Carrying small objects in each hand that can easily be carried on one side does not count as occupied.

CPT William Jones
I think the instruction to be a bit fuzzy. It states "with both hands" as opposed to "in both hands". My interpretation of the instruction would be that an article(s) (ie several binders, a box) would have to be held with both hands, and not two different things in either hand. Again, it's a fuzzy area. What was the spirit of the instruction: to avoid holding tow different things in both hands so as to NOT impede the rendering of military courtesy, or to include the possibility of holding a binder in one hand AND a coffee mug in the other. My thoughts is the former, so I would have corrected any Sailor walking around like that so as to get out of having to render a military courtesy.

I often brought my travel mug with me while also having to carry a notebook, or binder, or something else. When I did, I switched my mug to the left side and rendered the proper military courtesy. At colors, I would ground my gear (and would instruct others to do the same) and then render a salute.

I think the instruction needs to be clarified, otherwise local commanders should give local instruction as to what that means.

Sir this is NCO business. Not to say you do not have a say. Rule of thumb is only heavy objects that require both hands to carry do not require a salute but a verbal greeting. This is for safety reasons not to be used because you do not want to walk around saluting officers. So unless this is a huge binder or a really big mug then you either switch hands salute and go on your way or stop, so as not to spill hot liquid on your hand, switch hands then salute and then get on your way.

MSG Clyde Mills And as I said above, you are failing to consider the general professionialism and judgement of a CSM. You are coming down on the side of assuming the soldier was carrying a heavy binder, and everyone else is coming down on the side of assuming the CSM is not a total moron, and has good enough judgement to be able to make the call on what the soldier is capable of. As other people have mentioned, and you conveniently ignored those particular posts, soldiers are not supposed to be eating/drinking when walking from one place to another, so that is another gray area in the CSM's favor. Plus, the fact remains, this is a no-win situation for the soldier, if the CSM has already lectured them twice on the same infraction. I absolutely, 100% guarantee you the soldier will lose this battle if they continue to display the same behavior. They are here on Rally Point looking for sympathy for a point of contention that they simply will not be successful on.

You are very much setting this soldier up for failure in providing them support by assuming the CSM had poor judgement. Even if it were true, it doesn't matter, because if this soldier ends up getting stopped by the same CSM for the same infraction a third time, they are gonna have a really bad day. And if they retaliate by going to the LTC over a ****** coffee mug, they might even be successful on this one particular situation. But I guarantee you, a lower ranking enlisted member getting into a pissing match with a CSM is going to lose, long term. There are a lot of ways, perfectly within regulation that this CSM can make a service member's life miserable.

SGT Russell Chewning I still never said I was agreeing with this soldier as you keep saying and please gets the facts straight. This CSN, did not correct this soldier twice. The soldier was corrected twice for the same type of infraction. And again I’ll make my point, it’s not the CSM’s position to stop the soldier and delay the Officer as to where he was going. Yes he did indeed do this, but as a higher ranking Senior NCO, he should have waited until after he got to wherever he was escorting the Officer. Then he should have got ahold of a Junior NCO and explained the situation to them and told the Junior NCO to take care of the proper training that this junior soldier might need in D&C. Because he already knew the soldiers name, cause the soldier walked right past the Officer and himself. As you get older and wiser you’ll learn more ways of handling situations like this instead of thinking you have to be the one that has to make every on the spot correction / violation you see while walking around the BN area.

MSG Clyde Mills Well, we don't all have the advantage of years of service in the reserves in the supply field. No offense, and "One Army", and all that, but we've had a couple wars since you were in the service, and active duty members don't get quite as much slack as reserves as a general rule. Your "different ways of dealing with situations" might work in the reserves, where you were a supply sergeant who could make things difficult for anybody who got too big for their britches, but an active duty intelligence specialist has literally zero leverage when it comes to butting heads with a CSM. It hink you are frankly, a bit out of touch with how things work in the modern Army.

SGT Russell Chewning ok Young Buck Sgt. As those who have viewed my Profile, they have noticed it is not complete yet. I did not and repeat did not spend all my time in the Reserves as you say. My Military Career does in fact extend over over several arms of the U.S. Army in one way or another covering 20 years and 4 months. Promoted to Sgt. E-5 in only 20 months from the day I enlisted on Active duty. Graduated As an Honor Graduate at my very 1st. PNCOC I attended as a PFC. was promoted to the next rank in the minimum time in service and Time in Grade my Entire Military Career. Plus earned an EIB as an E-3 while Stationed at my very 1st. Active Duty Station after leaving The National Guards. Won 3 lvl’s of the Sgt. Morales Club Competition when I served in Germany just after making Sgt. E-5 going up against other E-5 to E-8’s. Had to drop out of Competition due to Hardship Discharge prior to competing in Phase . So I might be out of touch a bit with today’s Army and it’s somewhat Mostly Pansy wansy Soldiers who can’t be screamed at or yelled at for fear they might get their feelings hurt. Also I served during Desert Storm, so until you can walk and fill my shoes for the 20 plus years I served you ain’t got crap to say in regards to how I see things through my eyes.

There was at least one MSgt still in when I was a boot in 79 that had a waiver to salute with left hand. His right arm was immobile due to combat. May have been one of the last WWII few, but probably Korea & Nam for sure. In Japan, and seems he was an engineer.

This is spot on. One has to be able to interpret the spirit of the regs, not just the letter.

CWO3 (Join to see) - Seeing someone salute with the left, and then pull out a profile for it, would be absolutely wild! haha

That's quite an estimate! Sounds like me watching the first game of the Lions season each year.

Good answer but I'm I would lower that percentage to about 90% which is still pretty good.

Works for some officers but not for a CSM especially if it is your units CSM. He or she will give you a talking to that you do not want to have. He or she should since the conduct of all enlisted soldiers with in the unit falls under the CSM responsibilities.