Posted on Dec 14, 2020
Do I need to render a salute to an officer when my hands are occupied?
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This is the second time I’ve gotten reprimanded for this situation. I was walking with a binder in my hands, and a mug in the other hand. I walked past a CSM and a CPT, greeted both as I was unable to salute. CSM stopped me and demanded that I drop everything to salute the CPT. AR 600-25 states that I am not required to render a salute if I am carrying articles with both hands. What is the right answer?
Customs and Courtesies
Saluting
Officers
Enlisted
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 633
You are a Sergeant and should be able to figure it out. Transfer the binder to under your left arm, your mug to your left hand, and then salute. As mentioned by Lt Col Charlie Brown, you should have situational awareness so that you are not in this situation.
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SFC Robert Bundrick
Sgt (Join to see) Let's not get it confused, difference between Army and Marine training is one group is paid to think for themselves! The old days of blindly following orders are of the past!
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SFC Robert Bundrick
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter That's your opinion, and your opinion doesn't Trump AR's, if a big deal was made about it I would gladly let my chain of command deal with it!
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SFC Robert Bundrick - It's NOT just My opinion, AR600-25 Section 2-1 on Page 1 of that regulation states very clearly unless BOTH hands are occupied a salute IS REQUIRED. Persons on work details or engaged in sports are NOT required to salute. I had spoke of having ONE hand occupied, then a salute is required. One reason most people carry items in the left hand to make the right hand available for a salute when it is required. The Army Regulation was very specific . No My opinion doesn't trump Army Regulations it follows them to the letter. I'm very well familiar with the Regulations and have taught classed on them to both Cadets and active duty Military members. I also paid attention to the instruct I received first as a Cadet at a Military Academy with an Army ROTC program then on active duty with the US Armed forces.
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Sgt Ashley Leavitt
Sgt (Join to see) exactly. I am reading these comments and thinking that this would just be a non issue. In the Corps.
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Stop pushing it. If you can't figure out how to carry your mug and tuck your binder under your left arm pit not sure I want you next to me. Or are your trying to be an ass. Either way keep your right hand free outside if you'll be running into O's.
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This reminds me of when I was stationed in Verona, Italy and was reading the bulletin board outside of the library in a walk-through area (a roof overhead) when I heard a voice say "don't you salute officers soldier?" I turned around and standing in front of me was a 2nd lieutenant. Never saw him nor heard him come up and there was no one else around for 50 yards. I saluted without saying anything and he left. He was around 5'2" tall so I assumed he had some respect issues.
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SrA Kyle Saritelli
That reminds me of the time I didn't salute an cadet from the Air Force Academy (I was also Air Force) doing a summer internship on base. I walked past him, greeted him, didn't salute him and he called me back and went off on me for not saluting. Each year we were instructed we are not required to salute cadets but still render a greeting. As he's chewing me out my Colonel was walking up and waved me off to not salute. Standing behind the little cadet the Colonel again nodded for his salute, so I then gave it and returned it so I dropped mine. The cadet went off again because I lowered my salute before he returned it. That's when my Colonel spoke up and then proceeded to chew out the cadet as I was dismissed.
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CWO4 Jerry Place
Went to various Staff Planning Schools at Coronado when USN had the initial naval warfare course for new ROTC Ensigns. As a USMC CWO4, every Ensign saluted me every time they ran into me. I stopped trying to explain and just returned the salutes.
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SPC Vonnie Jones
Lol yup under a cover area yea he had issues lol and one was to go to officer candidates school again
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You are too cute by half!
The fact that you even know the regulation about exceptions is more damning than your lame excuses. If I accepted it I'd have to believe you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. No you planned it.
The officer has earned your respect, whether you want to give it or not.
You appear to have conveniently occupied your hands in order to diminish the respect you owe superiors. Get with the program or leave.
The fact that you even know the regulation about exceptions is more damning than your lame excuses. If I accepted it I'd have to believe you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. No you planned it.
The officer has earned your respect, whether you want to give it or not.
You appear to have conveniently occupied your hands in order to diminish the respect you owe superiors. Get with the program or leave.
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SFC Gerald Schulz
I'm not allowed to down vote. I guess I haven't earned the right to express myself in here. I'll just say you don't read minds. You can only speculate wildly about what others think. You're most likely like a CSM nothing better to do than bitch.
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PO3 JamiSue Moore
Right!
If I could figure out how to salute on crutches...well...I have to agree with everything you said.
If I could figure out how to salute on crutches...well...I have to agree with everything you said.
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Been there before, however here is the BLUF.
If you can carry everything im your left hand do so, however IF you cannot, or unable to carry inly in the in the left hand, then you are not required to render salute to a superior. However you must still stop and render salute to the colors upon the proper bugle calls.
FINALLY, DO render verbal acknowledgment of when passing the superior. Walk with confidence and look at the reg. If they cannot stand that you know the rules then you can chose to fight it or just roll over.
If you can carry everything im your left hand do so, however IF you cannot, or unable to carry inly in the in the left hand, then you are not required to render salute to a superior. However you must still stop and render salute to the colors upon the proper bugle calls.
FINALLY, DO render verbal acknowledgment of when passing the superior. Walk with confidence and look at the reg. If they cannot stand that you know the rules then you can chose to fight it or just roll over.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
You should try and avoid carrying things in both Hands but if there is no way around it at least acknowledge them by a polite verbal greeting to still acknowledge them and the respect.
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That regulation is designed for instances that carrying things that make it impossible to salute such as package so large it takes both hands to carry them acknowledge the Officer with a nod and greeting. If that had been the case I doubt anything would have been said. A coffee mug and a binder ? give me a break, there are ways to carry those items using one hand and not have to drop anything. the binder could have been held under Your left arm and the coffee in Your left hand and I hope You weren't drinking that coffee as You walked, that also would NOT be proper. This is a big stretch of what the Regulation was intended for and a situation You should have and could have avoided and seems a lot more like a plan to avoid rendering proper Military Courtesies. If I were where the CSM was and walking with an officer was I believe I also would have said the same thing He did. Not even once as a cadet or member of the Military service did I ever fail to render those Military courtesies and no one ever had to speak to me about that subject. I may add I've also taught classes on the subjects of Military Customs and courtesies to insure ALL My students knew what the customs were, what they meant, the history and observed them.
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SSgt John Buono
Avoiding rendering military courtesies. Sounds kinda similar to all them folks that scurry to their cars when retreat would play over the loudspeaker at 1630 everyday! Is that punishable under the UCMJ?
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SSgt John Buono - I've never known of anybody to be punished for that but it's sure NOT the thing to do.
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absolutely, reminds me of the time that i was going to medical, outside as i was walking towads the door a Navy Commander stopped me in my tracks. i had saluted, but the salute wasnt his problem as he laid hands on me. i was stationed on the USS Comstock LSD-45, he was about to blow a gasket and told me to hand him my cover (Hat). he then ranted that he was a medical Doctor and thought i was clowning around since he stated that 45 was the Medical number for actual L>S>D>. he said that the Navy would have never named the ship with that Number. i was beaming that i knew better. He ate crow and carried on.
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PO3 JamiSue Moore
PO2 Gilbert Moore
Not really if you understand the military history of LSD. A medical wouldn't know ship names, so I can totally see it.
Not really if you understand the military history of LSD. A medical wouldn't know ship names, so I can totally see it.
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AR 670-1 , 3-6(d) says no eating drinking smoking or cell phone use while walking in uniform
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The CSM obviously thought to could switch stuff into your left hand, then you should have done it. Bottom line is don’t make it so you can be challenged.
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MSG Clyde Mills
Not taking up for the soldier at all and no your incorrect, this CSM did not correct the same soldier twice. The soldier was corrected twice for the same offense according to her Post. I stated that unless all the facts are on the table how can one set behind a PC and try and say how they would have handled the situation. Have you ever worked in Supply and had to carry a 4 inch 3 ring binder plum full of Arms room documents or Document Register Documents? These binders can weigh up to 10 lbs and upwards. It was another CSM who corrected her the first time the incident happened.SGT Russell Chewning
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SGT Russell Chewning
MSG Clyde Mills That makes this even worse. OP got corrected by TWO different higher ranking personnel????? For the same perceived offense?????? Your defense of their behavior "according to reg" presupposes poor judgement of at least TWO different people that outrank OP in not recognizing that the items in questions were too heavy to be adjusted. I mean really, how likely is that?????
I very much think you are letting your specific job experience color what is pretty much a cut and dry situation. The vast majority of service members are not carrying around 20lb binders. I, and a lot of other people in this discussion, think OP simply doesn't "get" that they are subconsciously setting up a situation that is gonna get them hemmed up, regardless of what the regs say. If their particular unit has a cultural bias against carrying around non job-related items when moving from one area to another (coffee mug), then the regs be damned, this soldier WILL NOT be successful in this environment if they continue to do so, regardless of what the regs say.
Sorry to say it, but I think you spent a little too much time in supply, got a little too comfortable, and forgot how the rest of the Army works. Supply personnel get a little bit of slack, as everybody relies on the good graces of the supply sergeant to get their stuff.
I very much think you are letting your specific job experience color what is pretty much a cut and dry situation. The vast majority of service members are not carrying around 20lb binders. I, and a lot of other people in this discussion, think OP simply doesn't "get" that they are subconsciously setting up a situation that is gonna get them hemmed up, regardless of what the regs say. If their particular unit has a cultural bias against carrying around non job-related items when moving from one area to another (coffee mug), then the regs be damned, this soldier WILL NOT be successful in this environment if they continue to do so, regardless of what the regs say.
Sorry to say it, but I think you spent a little too much time in supply, got a little too comfortable, and forgot how the rest of the Army works. Supply personnel get a little bit of slack, as everybody relies on the good graces of the supply sergeant to get their stuff.
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MSG Clyde Mills
First 8 years as a grunt and the last 12 years and 4 months as Supply so I been around the block to have seen quite a bit of all walks of life in the military.SGT Russell Chewning
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SSG Robert Perrotto
Bottom line up front - If the CSM made the judgement call, and determined that this SM was out of line - then who are any of us to second guess that particular CSM. a binder and a mug. One of those things are not mission essential, and could have been left behind. Had this SM been carrying something requiring both hands, like a box or piece of equipment - then I am sure the CSM would have charlie miked as long as she acknowledged the officer with a greeting. She could have put the binder between her inner arm and lateral muscle and squeezed while holding the mug in the left hand and rendered the salute - if the binder was so bulky that it was not possible to do, then carrying it one handed doesn't seem feasable now does it? Most times, if you make the effort, the officer will wave off the salute, in which case the CSM doesn't have a case to get into your ass. You made the effort, and the officer waved it off. Seems like this SM thought they could brush it off without even a greeting and got their ass chewed, and rightly so.
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