Posted on Mar 9, 2015
Do morals and values still matter?
Suspended Profile
23.4K
230
129
The recent case of Gen. Petraeus prompted me to think about this a little.
We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.
Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)
We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.
Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)
Values
Leadership
Morals
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
Unfortunately they don't appear to matter much to most people most of the time - unless they are trying to force their "morals and values" down someone else's throat.
What REALLY offends me is not so much that people who shouldn't have one have a price BUT that their price is so damn cheap.
What REALLY offends me is not so much that people who shouldn't have one have a price BUT that their price is so damn cheap.
I refuse to entrust my fate or that of those I love to someone who has no morals or ethical values.
Case in point: during to Gulf War: I went to see the unit that I had just PCS from, and my 1LT said why was the guy upset, I said wait here --- he's a 1LT(P) but he was permoted to CPT before I left, and I need you stay in the Vechicle I go speak to the Bat LTC. a great friend a mine, once I see what he tell me. Comes to find out he went on ahead a Married the Hoorker, that the whole battery had been with and started a fight with other NCOsx and other OFFICERs, that got PUT OUT of service or PCS to S. K. and wanted me to be at his hearing outnin the desert. I explained my Command was nnot going to be pleased with that at all.
I did speak with the LTC, he said he could keep sleeping with her but DONT Marry her IT would STOP!! his CAREER. He did not believe him (LTC). He lost everything. I went back to him with the LTC's driver and other LTs he heard what was told, and a grown man just sob, as I drove off back to my new UNIT.
I did speak with the LTC, he said he could keep sleeping with her but DONT Marry her IT would STOP!! his CAREER. He did not believe him (LTC). He lost everything. I went back to him with the LTC's driver and other LTs he heard what was told, and a grown man just sob, as I drove off back to my new UNIT.
Values are the right and left limits to living life and conducting business. Without them, there is no trust, no responsibility, and our entire system would collapse.
We do things based on values of people and their company. We would never hire a babysitter for our kids if they had no values and believed anything goes, including giving our kids drugs, etc.
Values, ethics, morals are extremely important, and help us check our anarchist or dictatorial tendencies.
We do things based on values of people and their company. We would never hire a babysitter for our kids if they had no values and believed anything goes, including giving our kids drugs, etc.
Values, ethics, morals are extremely important, and help us check our anarchist or dictatorial tendencies.
I think there are a number of reasons for this:
1 ) Position is above the enforcer (political suicide to go after such individuals)
2 ) Ego of Alpha types - either they think that they are smarter and won't get caught or rules don't apply to them.
3 ) Society has become accustomed to such leaders - look at peoples' views of politicians as the vast majority think politicians are scum bags.
4 ) Also I think a big part is when leaders self assess they they are very disingenuous to themselves - if they are going to lie to others they will lie to themselves.
From the view point of psychology there are two sides of morality. One side being the morals are innate the other it is that they are learned. Perhaps it is a little of both.
Not to pick on a political party an example I can think of is Bill Clinton's record
- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- Second president accused of rape**
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court
Most disturbing facts:
- Number of persons in the Clinton machine who are alleged to have committed suicide: 9
- Number known to have been murdered: 12
This is who we decided to elect as our President. I doubt I would let an individual with such a resume watch my kid yet he was the leader of our country. He not only lacked a moral standing his influence was the cause of corruption in others.
Here is a good read on the subject from a Norwegian Journal of Military Ethics. (Its in English)
http://www.pacem.no/2010/2/2lederutvelgelse/3olsen/
1 ) Position is above the enforcer (political suicide to go after such individuals)
2 ) Ego of Alpha types - either they think that they are smarter and won't get caught or rules don't apply to them.
3 ) Society has become accustomed to such leaders - look at peoples' views of politicians as the vast majority think politicians are scum bags.
4 ) Also I think a big part is when leaders self assess they they are very disingenuous to themselves - if they are going to lie to others they will lie to themselves.
From the view point of psychology there are two sides of morality. One side being the morals are innate the other it is that they are learned. Perhaps it is a little of both.
Not to pick on a political party an example I can think of is Bill Clinton's record
- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- Second president accused of rape**
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court
Most disturbing facts:
- Number of persons in the Clinton machine who are alleged to have committed suicide: 9
- Number known to have been murdered: 12
This is who we decided to elect as our President. I doubt I would let an individual with such a resume watch my kid yet he was the leader of our country. He not only lacked a moral standing his influence was the cause of corruption in others.
Here is a good read on the subject from a Norwegian Journal of Military Ethics. (Its in English)
http://www.pacem.no/2010/2/2lederutvelgelse/3olsen/
Suspended Profile
SPC David S. First off, the Impeachment was a farce - a polarized party run a muck. There was no basis for the charges, hence the dismissal.
Obviously we have to be able to find out more about our candidates. Some, like J Bush, H Clinton, S Walker, etc., are well known and so are their foibles. But, when you get a Huntsman, or a Palin, or whatever, who has never been in the spotlight, it's a lot harder to find their warts.
Maybe we need to push for a mandatory information sheet for candidates. The should complete it and publicize/publish it, so we know their history on certain key items...
Obviously we have to be able to find out more about our candidates. Some, like J Bush, H Clinton, S Walker, etc., are well known and so are their foibles. But, when you get a Huntsman, or a Palin, or whatever, who has never been in the spotlight, it's a lot harder to find their warts.
Maybe we need to push for a mandatory information sheet for candidates. The should complete it and publicize/publish it, so we know their history on certain key items...
Muhammad Ali (world champion boxer for those who aren't of a certain age) once said "It's the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen." Thus, I am going to repeat myself on this topic until something begins to happen...
We must learn to celebrate the act of heroism rather than the hero. Why? Ultimately, all heroes fail.
All people fail from time to time. We're only human.
I've never failed as Petraeus failed, however I've never achieved anything as heroic as Petraeus has, and I've often wondered if I had, would I have then been tested and failed as he did.
So many Presidents have. As noted, Eisenhower. Also, there's FDR, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and, now it's rumored, Barrack Obama, have all succumbed to the carnal temptations thrown at powerful men. Some haven't. I'm not certain, but I don't believe that Truman, Ford, Carter, Reagan, or either Bush did. Yes, we've been in the military and are quite familiar with the concept: Some will, some won't.
Still, values count. I see no evidence that any of these men failed to have values. Although we may argue with their values, we can respect those who lived up to them and regret those who failed.
It's tempting to excuse our own failures when our leaders fail. Indeed, many use their failure to live up to their values as an excuse, a trigger, to abandon their own when the opportunity presents itself. However, if we stop celebrating our heroes, maybe we can stop using their failures as our own excuses.
We must learn to celebrate the act of heroism rather than the hero. Why? Ultimately, all heroes fail.
All people fail from time to time. We're only human.
I've never failed as Petraeus failed, however I've never achieved anything as heroic as Petraeus has, and I've often wondered if I had, would I have then been tested and failed as he did.
So many Presidents have. As noted, Eisenhower. Also, there's FDR, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and, now it's rumored, Barrack Obama, have all succumbed to the carnal temptations thrown at powerful men. Some haven't. I'm not certain, but I don't believe that Truman, Ford, Carter, Reagan, or either Bush did. Yes, we've been in the military and are quite familiar with the concept: Some will, some won't.
Still, values count. I see no evidence that any of these men failed to have values. Although we may argue with their values, we can respect those who lived up to them and regret those who failed.
It's tempting to excuse our own failures when our leaders fail. Indeed, many use their failure to live up to their values as an excuse, a trigger, to abandon their own when the opportunity presents itself. However, if we stop celebrating our heroes, maybe we can stop using their failures as our own excuses.
Suspended Profile
CPT Jack Durish I think we can still celebrate our heroes.
The key is to learn to not rationalize our failures. It's very easy to shift blame. It takes a true Tzaddik, a Righteous Person, to say "I screwed up; please forgive me."
The key is to learn to not rationalize our failures. It's very easy to shift blame. It takes a true Tzaddik, a Righteous Person, to say "I screwed up; please forgive me."
CPT Jack Durish
That's the kind of leaders we need, true Tzaddiks. Even so, I would not celebrate a Tzaddik. I would focus on the acts.
Let me take this one step further...
There is a long standing tradition in the military services to salute the Medal of Honor. Every service member, even the highest flag officer will salute it, even when worn by the lowest private. Symbolically they are honoring/respecting the act symbolized by the MoH, not the person wearing it.
Let me take this one step further...
There is a long standing tradition in the military services to salute the Medal of Honor. Every service member, even the highest flag officer will salute it, even when worn by the lowest private. Symbolically they are honoring/respecting the act symbolized by the MoH, not the person wearing it.
Of course they matter, problem is everyone is human. We all make mistakes, some unfortunately make bigger ones than others.
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google
My apologies for confusing your difficulty with expressing the difference with a lack of knowledge of what the difference was.
Some of my biggest disappointments have been "Sunday Saints". Nicest people on earth for 24 hours......total O-rings for the rest of the week.