Posted on Sep 25, 2015
Do you believe the 2 women Rangers passed on their own merits or were they given special treatment?
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Responses: 134
I believe that even if special accommodations were made (which I doubt anyhow) the women would not have accepted it. Any women that has the drive and desire to go to Ranger school does so knowing that her admission, performance, and standards are going to be monumentally scrutinized. A women - a Soldier - with any self-respect and integrity wouldn't take any shortcuts as not to cheapen earning that tab. Having said that, God himself could have been a grader and some people still wouldn't believe it if they said they were held to the same standard.
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Sgt David Levy
They were given more opportunities to repeat different phases than any male candidate received; ergo they received special treatment.
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SFC John Kitts
Sgt David Levy - How do you support that comment? I haven't kept up with this controversy but I have seen a lot of support for these new Rangers and a lot of negative comments and I wonder how the insiders of the program saw the training and the outcome.
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Sgt David Levy
SFC John Kitts - this was referenced in almost every article that I saw published on the subject. For example: http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/09/18/ranger-school-many-do-overs-rare-not-unprecedented/72419032/
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CW4 Juan Morales
Sgt David Levy - I recycled Fort Benning in 1998, while recycled I noted quite a few recycles who were there multiple times. I know a guy who took 9 months to graduate. Multiple attempts, in this Ranger's opinion, speaks to perseverance, not special treatment. Be careful where you get your information from. The Ranger Training Brigade has issued multiple statements to this effect. I happened to fly down to Camp Merrill last February to fly a class around, and had the chance to speak to some of the RI's. I believe every single instructor there is a person of high integrity. I wish those women well, and I'd be proud to serve with any one of them.
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Absolutely. Zero doubts of this, they were held against the same standards as everyone else.
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1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
PO2 Michael Henry - I suspect that after a career in the Army I have a grasp of Ranger School. It is not an MOS producing course but it is directly related to Combat Arms.
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PO2 Michael Henry
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker - Never said it was an MOS, yes I know the difference between the two courses, have family members who are/were in the Army. It is a a training course to develop combat leadership in small unit tactics, it doesn't make you an actual Army Ranger. HOWEVER, the course is almost a requirement to reach upper ranks and doesn't put you in a combat job. The one that most people including the media think of when Ranger school comes up is the 75th Rangers course. That one means you actually serve as an Army Ranger and go into combat with other Army Rangers.
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CPT John Hanaberry
Ranger tab. Nov. ' 66. NO RECYCLES were allowed except medical. You got ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT 4 to 6 MONTHS Charlie Beckwith Camp Cmdr. Why have standards been lowered so much? So girls can pass? RVN Inf Combat Vet. Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army. ' 68 - ' 69
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CPT John Hanaberry
Ranger tab 'Nov ' 66. Ranger school sadly has become a Politically Correct Social Experiment. Under the 'Old' Ranger school rules NOT a single girl would have passed. NO RECYCLES except medical. You got ONE shat to complete in 9 WEEKS Not this 4 to 6 months nonsense Charlie Beckwith Camp Cmdr. RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army ' 68 - ' 69
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I believe they succeeded on their own merits.
I also believe there are some who will never believe that. Sad.
I also believe there are some who will never believe that. Sad.
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SSG Ken Steinhoff
My son was one of the instructors for the first female circle through Ranger school they did not make it on their own merit the code for some through and they have different standards
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Of course they did. I know for a fact the Army's Ranger School would never lower their standards no matter what. And I'm also certain that people who think so are just haters. Haters gotta hate. That just gives the new female Rangers more power of them. But seriously, stop hating on these females. They worked very hard to earn this qualification. Good for them and shame on those who can't accept it.
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1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
I refuse to believe the Ranger School Cadre would have two sets of standards. Ain't gonna happen.
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Rangers don't just give out tabs, they are earned. Male or Female......I believe they earned those tabs and I would be honored to serve next to them any day. Both those ladies had what it takes and showed the military that you can't define a persons ability by thier gender. I say HOOAH!!!!!
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LTC John Wilson
I think it is insane that the Men in out society are starting to have to field questions about the toughness of the Ranger course since two women graduated. The rest of the men that graduated this course are just as proud as the women who passed and they live up to the highest standards of being professionals at their job. Unfortunately those challenging the men of this country must not have served with them in any of the past wars or current contingencies. Our troops are some of the finest in the world bar none. Because we respect women and congratulate them for their efforts and graduation, doesn't make us any weaker than any other male specimen on this planet. God bless the US Military, congratulations to the ladies that passed, and God Bless America's Armed Forces. We are stronger for it!
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SSG (Join to see)
Sgt Wilson the issue these female rangers are unfortunately going to have is that we do not have trust worthy politicians so even if the ladies did earn the tab (I believe they did) there will always be an asterisk next to their accomplishment
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MAJ Bill Darling
It's possible that foreign officers have slipped through in the past. And grading by RI's can be arbitrary at times, both in favor and against a student.
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CPT John Hanaberry
Hey. LTC Wilson. Standards HAVE been LOWERED. Ranger tab Nov ' 66. NO RECYCLES were allowed except medical you got ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS not this 4 to 6 MONTHS Nonsense Charlie Beckwith Camp Cmdr. RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army '68 - ' 69
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Yes, completely on their own merits. All the comments abut lets see what the investigation says or I would like to know what the Ranger Instructors would say if they were free from retribution only means that it is believed. Why investigate? If we think the US Army Ranger School has truly done this then the response would be to shut it down and disband the Rangers. This is saying you think Rangers from every rank are liars and have zero integrity. These Soldiers who passed have no Honor and are part of a giant conspiracy to do what I don't know. If you think it's true or even that an investigation is required then you think the Army is one giant piece of shit. I say to all F*** Off. These women went out and did something incredible. They should be met with nothing but congratulations and respect. There are always so many comments about "brothers and sisters in arms' and all this crap about veterans and how noble we all are. If you think this is true and you draw your pride form the US Army then you need to realize that everything you told yourself is a big fat lie. Why question these hard charging Soldiers just because you don't believe it is possible for a woman to do something 99% of everyone commenting has no idea what it's about and would not get past the first fricking day.
Listen to MAJ Jim Hathaway, the current RTB executive officer:
No matter what we at Ranger School say, the non-believers will still be non-believers. We could have invited each of you to guest walk the entire course, and you would still not believe, we could have video recorded every patrol and you would still say that we “gave” it away. Nothing we say will change your opinion. I and the rest of our cadre are proud of the conduct of our soldiers, NCOs, and officers; they took the mission assigned and performed to the Ranger standard. Rangers Lead the Way!
And if you want to lump this Major and the Lieutenant who wrote the piece into the same category then you must be so humiliated to be associated with such an honor-less military system you should get the f*** out and go work at UPS.
Listen to MAJ Jim Hathaway, the current RTB executive officer:
No matter what we at Ranger School say, the non-believers will still be non-believers. We could have invited each of you to guest walk the entire course, and you would still not believe, we could have video recorded every patrol and you would still say that we “gave” it away. Nothing we say will change your opinion. I and the rest of our cadre are proud of the conduct of our soldiers, NCOs, and officers; they took the mission assigned and performed to the Ranger standard. Rangers Lead the Way!
And if you want to lump this Major and the Lieutenant who wrote the piece into the same category then you must be so humiliated to be associated with such an honor-less military system you should get the f*** out and go work at UPS.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Pump the breaks Sarge! Soldiers follow orders. I don't think Rangers or RI's were sitting around one day and said "let's make some female Rangers". I do think politicians were siting around one day and they said " Hey Army, make some female Rangers". I am a Ranger and I worked as an RI when I was enlisted.
I went through flight school when we were surging in Iraq and due to a need for Pilots, several people graduated flight school that shouldn't have even been allowed to wear the uniform. In FY15 100% of AH-64 CW3's were promoted to CW4 due to a need for Apache CW4's. I personally know several guys that were promoted that 100% should not have been. When the leadership perceives a need for something there is a knee jerk reaction and we are ordered to make it happen. Things in the military don't always happen because they are right thing or because they are the best thing for the Army.
Take a look at the way we fight wars! How different would would we fight if all political influence were removed? I wasn't an RI when these women went through and I can't say whether or not he standard was changed/lowered, but I can say that standards do change when the military needs certain things to happen and politicians pull some strings or make a phone call.
Ultimately Ranger school is a leadership school and if these women were held to the same standard as I was then, congratulations!
I went through flight school when we were surging in Iraq and due to a need for Pilots, several people graduated flight school that shouldn't have even been allowed to wear the uniform. In FY15 100% of AH-64 CW3's were promoted to CW4 due to a need for Apache CW4's. I personally know several guys that were promoted that 100% should not have been. When the leadership perceives a need for something there is a knee jerk reaction and we are ordered to make it happen. Things in the military don't always happen because they are right thing or because they are the best thing for the Army.
Take a look at the way we fight wars! How different would would we fight if all political influence were removed? I wasn't an RI when these women went through and I can't say whether or not he standard was changed/lowered, but I can say that standards do change when the military needs certain things to happen and politicians pull some strings or make a phone call.
Ultimately Ranger school is a leadership school and if these women were held to the same standard as I was then, congratulations!
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CPT Pedro Meza
CW3 (Join to see) - Hey, Chief nice job in adding to the knuckled heads with your "If" comment. Remove the doubt and place your trust in the School; stay in your lane.
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As a Ranger graduate,we insist on maintaining the standards of the course. I can tell you that the CG at Ft Benning visited the school just before the two women graduated,and checked on the status,grading and monitoring of the women. As the women progressed through the 2 months,he continuously checked that all standards were being met-after they passed the first 4 days--6 pullups,50 situps and 50 pushups in 2 mion,and a 5 mile run in 40 min,plus the forced march (about 40% of the men didint make it) they were over the hardest part.
They made it fair and square--!
They made it fair and square--!
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
COL Lincoln, when I went to Warrant Officer School. I heard the same flack. When I went to CHBOLC, we had 180 in our class and 14 females. Where is our military bearing, this is supposed to be a professional forum?
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CPT John Hanaberry
Col Lincoln. Ranger tab ' Nov 66. Command Influence WAS EXERCISED by GOs in favor of the women. Under 'OLD' Ranger school rules NO RECYCLES were allowed except medical. You got ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT this 4 to 6 MONTHS Nonsense. Standards HAVE BEEN LOWERED. Charlie Beckwith Camp Cmdr. RVN Inf Combat Vet. Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army. ' 68 - ' 69
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I believe without a shadow of a doubt that these two Officers passed Ranger School on their own merits. I personally know the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade CSM. He is the epitome of doing things the Right way. He would NEVER encourage his instructors to bend the rules for anyone! The fact that people are calling professional Officers and Noncommissioned Officers integrity into question is appalling. The fact of the matter is these two Officers passed Ranger School. If you dont like it, Volunteer to get out. This will save someone from being involuntarily seperated due to Sequestration.
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CPT Pedro Meza
Times have changed and so have conflicts we now face an enemy that hit us here at home, an enemy that respects neither laws nor Geneva Convention Codes, this enemy selects the battle field and where they will engage us, like it or not combat is defined by the enemy and not by our politics nor our ideologies about women in combat, which means that our service women are in combat no matter where they serve because the enemy selects the battle field. This means Women are in Combat and serve in a Combat capacity and we need to accept the facts that are set by the actions of the enemy.
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I think given the attrition rate for females and the agony these ladies went thru it is an insult to both them and their instructors to question the integrity of a system that was already under so much scrutiny.
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Lt Col Michael Thomas
You know, ultimately neither of us were there. The Marines are under fire for the stand they are taking, but their approach is comparing the "average female" capability to the "average male" capability. Hands down, the results they got will point to the differences in physicality between men and women in general - no argument. But the two women that got through were nationally ranked college athletes - nothing average about either. Their individual capability and ability allowed them to succeed. The Army didn't allow the "average" to succeed, but didn't prevent the +3 standard deviation individuals from doing so.
They probably looked like they just got liberated from Auschwitz when they finished as well.
They probably looked like they just got liberated from Auschwitz when they finished as well.
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SSG Jeff Binkiewicz
MSG Pat Colby - Roger that MSG. They still looked pretty "fat" on graduation day.
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SSGT Robinson:
This is the Army and we do not condone special or individual treatment. It is hell being the first of anything. I have been the first female in my division, and my special treatment was getting punched in formation. I have been in programs where we had 14 females in a class of 180. Believe me if anything these two Soldiers has more stress and faced higher tension than the average Soldier. I doubt very serious they wanted all of this attention.
This is the Army and we do not condone special or individual treatment. It is hell being the first of anything. I have been the first female in my division, and my special treatment was getting punched in formation. I have been in programs where we had 14 females in a class of 180. Believe me if anything these two Soldiers has more stress and faced higher tension than the average Soldier. I doubt very serious they wanted all of this attention.
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