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Posted on May 6, 2015
Do you think Soldiers are fully prepared to be competitive in real life?
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
Spot on. Most civilians don't have enough intestinal fortitude to haul the Army's water.
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
SGM OLdsen, I appreciate your wit, yet I would like to draw your attention in regard to the rhetoric of the phrase vs. used it as a deride term. I was stationed at Fort Carson Colorado, being a soldier in the army was the easiest job ever, think about it. The military have an enormous safety net for its members; it is not the same outside the army, and most soldiers are not aware of that. If you are E-6 and below, getting from the army will consider a step down in competition. Those soldiers will not have enough critical skills to compete against fresh graduate with experience in the specialty.
Turn to your soldier coming Friday and ask them in the final formation if they can write a cover letter or a write a personal statement and what is the difference between a personal statement and a research statement. Those three questions are the ABC for any civilian candidate willing to apply for a position with a salary equal to E-4 in the job market or academia. Reflect the numbers you will get in final formation to a 350000 soldiers discharged from the army starting from 2012 till 2017. Put those numbers on a standard deviation ( I bet you will get -1 in a good day ).
Now ask yourself will you send such amount of soldier to a battle not prepared or not meeting a high standard? Success in civil life is continuous of the fight as the terrorist also targeting our economy and way of life. Failing in this particular battle will ease the terrorist mission. The military spent a big amount of money and resources on the transition process yet, in non-smart way.
Finally, I do apologize if the term "real life" I used offended you or my battle bodies. That was not my intention.
Turn to your soldier coming Friday and ask them in the final formation if they can write a cover letter or a write a personal statement and what is the difference between a personal statement and a research statement. Those three questions are the ABC for any civilian candidate willing to apply for a position with a salary equal to E-4 in the job market or academia. Reflect the numbers you will get in final formation to a 350000 soldiers discharged from the army starting from 2012 till 2017. Put those numbers on a standard deviation ( I bet you will get -1 in a good day ).
Now ask yourself will you send such amount of soldier to a battle not prepared or not meeting a high standard? Success in civil life is continuous of the fight as the terrorist also targeting our economy and way of life. Failing in this particular battle will ease the terrorist mission. The military spent a big amount of money and resources on the transition process yet, in non-smart way.
Finally, I do apologize if the term "real life" I used offended you or my battle bodies. That was not my intention.
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
I understand what you meant but you seem to have very little confidence in your fellow human beings. Just because they spent four or six years in the Army doesn't mean they are not prepared to function in the civilian world. I would challenge your statement against how many college graduates are prepared for the civilian world based off of four to five years partying in college without any real world experience.
Being a veteran really has nothing to do with being successful in life. You cannot lump 350,000 people into one category. Many will get out and be very successful, many will get out and live paycheck to paycheck, some will get out and struggle for the rest of their lives. Those numbers are no different from the non-veteran population.
I understand what you meant but you seem to have very little confidence in your fellow human beings. Just because they spent four or six years in the Army doesn't mean they are not prepared to function in the civilian world. I would challenge your statement against how many college graduates are prepared for the civilian world based off of four to five years partying in college without any real world experience.
Being a veteran really has nothing to do with being successful in life. You cannot lump 350,000 people into one category. Many will get out and be very successful, many will get out and live paycheck to paycheck, some will get out and struggle for the rest of their lives. Those numbers are no different from the non-veteran population.
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
a very valid point SGM, what you mention is a question can qualify for a reseach.
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GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad
Seriously though, I don't think today's servicemen (or women) can blame the military if they are not prepared for life after the military --- there are just too many opportunities (career counseling, education, transition assistance, etc.) available in that regard. This is one area that has vastly improved over the past decade or so.
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PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
Spot on Gunny. When I retired in 97 I spent a week in Transition Assistance Program. Did it cover everything, of course not had to learn some subtle in's and out's myself and actually had the help of a few old vets in that too (The ones that got me interested in the Military in the first place). The only sad, disappoint part is the Age thing. In the Technical Fields your far less marketable once you hit that magic 40 number.
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
I will respectfully disagree for many reasons.
1- all people you mentioned perhaps can help you decide what do you want to do when getting out. but they can not, what so ever, make you competitive.
2- not all the soldiers have equal access to qualified people across different military branches, for example, Airforce vs. Army.
3- time giving by different units to their soldiers during the transition is vary from one unit to another and from branch to another.
4- there is a gap the system didn't take in consideration which is the survival job period. after discharge.
5- military skills are different than civilian, the military train you for their requirements. but the soldier fail to meet the required skills in civilian world as they are not trained for them.
1- all people you mentioned perhaps can help you decide what do you want to do when getting out. but they can not, what so ever, make you competitive.
2- not all the soldiers have equal access to qualified people across different military branches, for example, Airforce vs. Army.
3- time giving by different units to their soldiers during the transition is vary from one unit to another and from branch to another.
4- there is a gap the system didn't take in consideration which is the survival job period. after discharge.
5- military skills are different than civilian, the military train you for their requirements. but the soldier fail to meet the required skills in civilian world as they are not trained for them.
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PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
Great Points. My Old Profession Cryptologic Technician Communications (COMSEC) doesn't even exist anymore. The (Crypto) codes are built into the Computers now and are not a separate part.
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Yes and no. Yes in that they have real world technical experience that can be translated into a multitude of civilian jobs. No in that (not the military's fault) the civilian world isn't as prepared to accept military experience as easily as you think they would. There are certain companies out there ready and willing to hire SMs based on their experience but even they will admit they are looking in the E-3 to E-5 range. Doesn't seem to be a lot readily available for the senior NCO - MAJ range, unless you find a good placement on your own and/or are willing to relocate where the jobs are as opposed to where you want to settle. There are a lot of companies out there trying to better understand the differences in civilian and military leadership and what a SM brings to the table in that area but we're not there yet. The military IMHO has made great strides in the transition area and is doing a great job supporting its transitioning and retiring SMs, but for some reason there still seems to be that schism between the two worlds that hasn't fully been bridged yet.
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If you are referring to Soldiers coming off active duty that have been there since high school: NO.
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CSM (Join to see)
I would disagree. I am confident that I am fully prepared for real life...I have been alive for 47 years, for real.
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MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM
I agree SGM, you represent an exception, not the average joe that does an average term. The average joe with average accomplishments that does an average term was carried. By this I mean they were fed, housed, clothed, had a fixed daily routine with less that 10% of things to worry about. My answer was geared towards the average.
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MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM
If you're a senior person coming off active duty, making 80-120k, a lot of which isn't taxed, and you think you are going to make anywhere near that without a serious documented civilian education then you aren't prepared. To make that kind of money in the civilian world you need to be aiming at a salary of 125-150k. Seeking a position as a government contractor isn't a good plan.
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I am fully aware that I probably will not land a civilian job that has as much responsibility much less the pay that I currently have in the Army. I am ok with that, I will clear upwards of $60,000 a year in retirement. I plan on getting a job that I truly enjoy, with decent benefits. If I get a job that pays 30-40K a year, that I love, I will be happy as a pig in shit.
The Soldier that spends four-six or more years in the service is just as capable as a civilian that spends four to five years in college. You and the OP have very little faith in your fellow human beings. You cannot lump all veterans into a group and say they are unable to be productive in the civilian work place. The numbers are very competitive between veterans and college graduates.
The Soldier that spends four-six or more years in the service is just as capable as a civilian that spends four to five years in college. You and the OP have very little faith in your fellow human beings. You cannot lump all veterans into a group and say they are unable to be productive in the civilian work place. The numbers are very competitive between veterans and college graduates.
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I think service members tend to look at their military er service and their experience there and limit how that applies to civilian life. I have been working since I was 14 years old, served for 4 years and the experience I gained in the service is by far my greatest asset. The majority of my service was spent as a mechanic. What skills did I get in that role?
1). Management
2). Supervision
3). Scheduling
4). Production Forecasting
5). Communications
6). Report writing
7). Regulatory compliance
8). Physical security
9). Information security
10). Quality control/assurance
Think about what you do or did, not what it was called but what was actually done.
1). Management
2). Supervision
3). Scheduling
4). Production Forecasting
5). Communications
6). Report writing
7). Regulatory compliance
8). Physical security
9). Information security
10). Quality control/assurance
Think about what you do or did, not what it was called but what was actually done.
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SPC Sweedan,
Thank you for your service.
What the military is good at is preparing our service members to protect our country; we are second to no one in this task. But preparing them to transition is not our primary function. Therefore, candidly, I would tell you no. It's not that the military has not put some effort into transitioning our members, its just a fact that that's not our primary mission.
I do believe that they are competitive in the civilian life, but I think a few big problems are: translating military skills and experience into an understandable civilian "speak"; getting over the stigma that a service member may "snap"; and whether or not a service member can adjust to the organizational fit of the organization without being disruptive to the current environment. I know the answer is that our service members are competitive and have proven that they can adapt to any environment. The issue will be wither the civilian agency is willing to give them that opportunity.
The cold truth. Overt treatment of our veterans have improved vastly from the times of Vietnam. Covert treatment has not necessarily translated into providing employment. They're grateful for selfless service and sacrifice or our service members and families, but it doesn't translate to trusting us with employment commensurate with our experience and education.
SGM McNeal
Thank you for your service.
What the military is good at is preparing our service members to protect our country; we are second to no one in this task. But preparing them to transition is not our primary function. Therefore, candidly, I would tell you no. It's not that the military has not put some effort into transitioning our members, its just a fact that that's not our primary mission.
I do believe that they are competitive in the civilian life, but I think a few big problems are: translating military skills and experience into an understandable civilian "speak"; getting over the stigma that a service member may "snap"; and whether or not a service member can adjust to the organizational fit of the organization without being disruptive to the current environment. I know the answer is that our service members are competitive and have proven that they can adapt to any environment. The issue will be wither the civilian agency is willing to give them that opportunity.
The cold truth. Overt treatment of our veterans have improved vastly from the times of Vietnam. Covert treatment has not necessarily translated into providing employment. They're grateful for selfless service and sacrifice or our service members and families, but it doesn't translate to trusting us with employment commensurate with our experience and education.
SGM McNeal
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
Dear SGM, I do thank you for your service as well. What all SGM provided through their long services is by far exceed mine and many others combined. So far, this is the most reasonable answer I got. The reason I asked such a question is that I think about my battle bodies a lot. My line of command, NCOs and I put a lot of effort in their training and prepare them for the missions. But almost all my battles is now in the civilian world fighting their way through and adapting. Some are doing very great some are not. That is why I was thinking instead of the army prepare their member to civilian life why not the private community prepare the soldier for itself. Just like when the military pushes the members through basic and AIT to make them suitable for the task and then transfer them to units when they get real mission experience. We can mimic that version. Usually, the soldiers after discharge spent 4 to 6 months hunting for a job and sorting their life all together with the help of labor department. But can we use this time to send them to a program designed by privet companies for six months. Make them path aware and able to fulfill jobs in such sector.
The job market nowadays is in a global competition. I want my battle bodies to be on that level. Just like when I prepare them for a global war on terrorism. I want to prepare them for the global market.
Personally I believe the terrorist group targets the economy and civilian way of life as well. Using the battle mentality that the soldiers get via military and direct it to the private sector. Aside of supply them with dynamic high-tech training or education we will gain a highly motivated individual that can push our economy in a faster rhythm comparing to other nations. And, of course, defeat a global enemy.
The job market nowadays is in a global competition. I want my battle bodies to be on that level. Just like when I prepare them for a global war on terrorism. I want to prepare them for the global market.
Personally I believe the terrorist group targets the economy and civilian way of life as well. Using the battle mentality that the soldiers get via military and direct it to the private sector. Aside of supply them with dynamic high-tech training or education we will gain a highly motivated individual that can push our economy in a faster rhythm comparing to other nations. And, of course, defeat a global enemy.
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SGM William McNeal
SPC Sweedan, I don't know "the" solution but "a" solution would be that civilian and veteran agencies within the local community take ownership and help with the transition of service members and the education of civilians of the capabilities of those service members as they pertain to their organization. I don't think the military services should do too much more than what they are doing. I say that because tax payer dollars are being paid to make sure those who serve are prepared to protect US interests. For the services to create a more in-depth program would require more tax dollars or reallocation of training funds.
I'm not a big fan of individualism in the military, team work has always served us well. But, having said that, the best advise you can give your buddies in the service is to simultaneously prepare for that transition while they serve (civilian education, civilian recognized certifications, etc...). I hate that I have to say this, but I try to be objective. They need to start networking before they separate from the military. While the service is good at making decisions and selections objectively, that's not so much the case in the civilian world. This doesn't mean that civilian agencies garnet fair, just that SOME don't have the discipline or training to be objective like the services.
I commend (and it's no surprise) you are still looking out for your Battle Buddies. What I do know is that they are capable and as you said, they'll need to adjust to a new type of friendly-battle now ... that is transitioning. We'll all have to try and help where we can.
I'm not a big fan of individualism in the military, team work has always served us well. But, having said that, the best advise you can give your buddies in the service is to simultaneously prepare for that transition while they serve (civilian education, civilian recognized certifications, etc...). I hate that I have to say this, but I try to be objective. They need to start networking before they separate from the military. While the service is good at making decisions and selections objectively, that's not so much the case in the civilian world. This doesn't mean that civilian agencies garnet fair, just that SOME don't have the discipline or training to be objective like the services.
I commend (and it's no surprise) you are still looking out for your Battle Buddies. What I do know is that they are capable and as you said, they'll need to adjust to a new type of friendly-battle now ... that is transitioning. We'll all have to try and help where we can.
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I thought people chose the path of there life and if being a Soldier is thier path how is that not real life? This is real to me and I love what I do.
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Depending on what the Soldier does while in the service they can be highly competitive. I have over 84 SH of College credit free of charge via TA and a national certification for my job to use on the outside. I will have my Associate and Bachelor degrees before I hit my 9 year mark in service to combine with 20+ years of experience when I retire.
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Personally I don't think it is the veteran who would be unprepared for life in the civilian sector, in the five years I have been out of uniform, I find it's the employers who are not prepared for those of us who served.
I can't count how many times I have gone to a potential employer and been told they don't see how my skills or my service will benefit their company, I even tried going through a head hunter company and they completely cocked it up, the job posting was for a large trucking company that I will not mention, so I handed them my resume that every professional job councilor told me was great and I should have no problem landing a first look. I was told that my skills don't translate. Funny you need a truck loaded at point A with eight stops to drop off and pick up before it got to point J, and it all had to happen in a certain time frame to keep the customer happy.
Don't know about you but when you had eight units needing food to feed the troops, medical supplies to help keep your brothers and sisters alive, and bullets so they could fight back, you moved the damn freight. The only difference I see is that in the civilian world you probably weren't going to get blown up in the process.
and yes just about every job I have applied to wanted me shuffled lower in the deck. At almost 40 years of age and with physical limitations my days of being able to scrub toilets is over, just like changing my own oil in my truck.
I can't count how many times I have gone to a potential employer and been told they don't see how my skills or my service will benefit their company, I even tried going through a head hunter company and they completely cocked it up, the job posting was for a large trucking company that I will not mention, so I handed them my resume that every professional job councilor told me was great and I should have no problem landing a first look. I was told that my skills don't translate. Funny you need a truck loaded at point A with eight stops to drop off and pick up before it got to point J, and it all had to happen in a certain time frame to keep the customer happy.
Don't know about you but when you had eight units needing food to feed the troops, medical supplies to help keep your brothers and sisters alive, and bullets so they could fight back, you moved the damn freight. The only difference I see is that in the civilian world you probably weren't going to get blown up in the process.
and yes just about every job I have applied to wanted me shuffled lower in the deck. At almost 40 years of age and with physical limitations my days of being able to scrub toilets is over, just like changing my own oil in my truck.
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
"I find it's the employers who are not prepared for those of us who served"
well said sgt.
well said sgt.
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I know exactly what you mean. I am not going to pass you off as you were one of those civilians that say ignorant things like, "military members are uneducated and stupid" as if everyone who doesn't join the military suddenly become college grads. The military is not an institution like a prison. Your question is more suited for prisoners who will soon see freedom. You are insinuating that service members are institutionalized. Well I don't feel that way. I have bills to pay. I can go to the store when every I want. I can consume adult beverages like wine and beer. I don't have anyone telling me when to go to bed and when to get up so I should be lost and confused when you ask about living the real life, but I have dealt with this very same question with civilians who were less than educated on the military. Will you please elaborate?
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SPC Marwan Sweedan
I do apologize SSG. if I gave the impression that the military personnel are less smart than others or that the military is like a prison. What I am trying to imply is that the military is like a big rich family that capable of supporting its kids, but outside that family those wonderful kids will face a different type of challenge. since the military primary mission is to prepare individuals for serving the country by carrying weapons, the military spend all time and resource to achieve that mission successfully. compare to what it used to be in Vietnam era, the military invested good amount of money to release soldiers back to civilian. however, I don't see those soldiers are capable of competing in a Job market with individuals coming from Universities that its primary mission is to prepare its members to occupy positions in the civilian job market. Nor at least the military prepare its individual to go to universities. it is an individual responsibility. for that reason I am thinking about a solution that can both ease this challenge and save money for the military.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
It's all good bro. A great number of Soldier I know who leave the military without benefits have some what of a plan like going to college or a vocational school. With the GI Bill they should be able to cover it unless they plan to attend Yale. Far as work, if they plan to hold a part time job while going to college, they would be fine too. I try to encourage all SMs to have a plan since I had a break in service from 2004 to 2007 so I know what it feels like but I attend college and it didn't matter where I worked part time.
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