Posted on Aug 19, 2022
Do you think we should get rid of the Bronze Star for Meritorious Service in theater?
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I'm sure many of us have heard stories of desk jockies and people who never left the wire getting a BSM without V Device over Troops that saw action and were lucky to get an ARCOM if that.
What if instead of allowing a BSM for meritorious acts inside the wire we limit it to Valor and Meritorious acts that are proven outside the wire. If the SM involved was in legitimate danger or on patrols in addition to their other responsibilities that might warrant such an award.
If they were not, then authorize an MSM with C Device to note that they got it while in theater.
I've even heard leaders describe a BSM without V as just an MSM awarded in theater.
So what do you think? Is it time to consider awarding MSM's with C Devices in the next conflict instead of handing out BSM to E7's and up?
The MSM already warrants the R Device and the ARCOM warrants the C Device as well, is it such a stretch?
What if instead of allowing a BSM for meritorious acts inside the wire we limit it to Valor and Meritorious acts that are proven outside the wire. If the SM involved was in legitimate danger or on patrols in addition to their other responsibilities that might warrant such an award.
If they were not, then authorize an MSM with C Device to note that they got it while in theater.
I've even heard leaders describe a BSM without V as just an MSM awarded in theater.
So what do you think? Is it time to consider awarding MSM's with C Devices in the next conflict instead of handing out BSM to E7's and up?
The MSM already warrants the R Device and the ARCOM warrants the C Device as well, is it such a stretch?
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Awards
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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I have never felt that this is a zero sum world. When someone else gets an award, I say good for them and congratulate them. My contributions and accomplishment are not diminished by the recognition of others. What I have or have not done will not appear on my tombstone, nor will theirs.
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SPC (Join to see)
That's a fair way of looking at it, and definitely good to congratulate someone for being recognized.
I think awards don't really belong to us, or to the officer awarding them, or to the Army for that matter. I think they belong to our families, our grandchildren, and so on. It's not so much for us that it has value it's more so that the next generation has something to view and say, "That was my granddad".
Sure, we might be proud of an award that we earned but they will look at it differently than we do. That's how I view them anyway.
I think awards don't really belong to us, or to the officer awarding them, or to the Army for that matter. I think they belong to our families, our grandchildren, and so on. It's not so much for us that it has value it's more so that the next generation has something to view and say, "That was my granddad".
Sure, we might be proud of an award that we earned but they will look at it differently than we do. That's how I view them anyway.
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What About A Cook Who Stop’s A Suicide Bomber In The Chow Hall ?
Or A Truck Driver Who Saves The Life Of A Mechanic Who Gets Trapped Under A Hummer That Feel Off A Jack stand During An RPG Attack ?
Both Of Those And Many Other Act’s Of Valor Have Happened Inside The Wire.
All Act’s Of Valor In Combat Zones Should Get Equal Award’s Outside The Wire Or Inside They Are All In Danger.
Yes There Are Many Award’s Given For The Wrong Reasons.
I Know Of A Captain Who Got A Purple Heart For Cutting His Arm On A Nail In The TOC During A Mortar Attack
Or A Truck Driver Who Saves The Life Of A Mechanic Who Gets Trapped Under A Hummer That Feel Off A Jack stand During An RPG Attack ?
Both Of Those And Many Other Act’s Of Valor Have Happened Inside The Wire.
All Act’s Of Valor In Combat Zones Should Get Equal Award’s Outside The Wire Or Inside They Are All In Danger.
Yes There Are Many Award’s Given For The Wrong Reasons.
I Know Of A Captain Who Got A Purple Heart For Cutting His Arm On A Nail In The TOC During A Mortar Attack
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CPT (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - Wel............ I missed getting the "C" device. A committee simply made up the device and the conditions and it's basically anyone that gets a combat patch probably would get a C device attached to any award they got.
I guess it basically means one can show they got their ARCOM down range verses a PCS award.
I guess it basically means one can show they got their ARCOM down range verses a PCS award.
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SPC (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - Pretty much, that was my understanding. For example my brother was in Afghanistan for most of his tour. Got a C on his ARCOM. Where as my tour because I wasn't needed forward, I stayed in Kuwait. Thus not C for me. Makes sense, one is exposed to danger and the other is not.
I find the R device interesting in that it is pretty much for drone users and other remote operations.
I find the R device interesting in that it is pretty much for drone users and other remote operations.
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SPC James Neidig
SPC (Join to see)
Well Said ! I Met A Few Marines And Soldiers Who Were Badge And Medal Chaser’s, But The Vast Majority Were Happy To Get Whatever They Were Awarded , Especially If It Gave Them Promotion Points,
Award’s Not Only Belong To Future Generation’s But Also To Our Past Generation’s By Carrying On A Legacy Of Honor And Bravery !
Well Said ! I Met A Few Marines And Soldiers Who Were Badge And Medal Chaser’s, But The Vast Majority Were Happy To Get Whatever They Were Awarded , Especially If It Gave Them Promotion Points,
Award’s Not Only Belong To Future Generation’s But Also To Our Past Generation’s By Carrying On A Legacy Of Honor And Bravery !
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SSG Bill McCoy
SPC (Join to see) - I'd forgotten all about the Soldier's Medal and Navy/Marine equivelent; great point. Also, very good point of history and successive generations!
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Here is your homework: Define the criteria for BSM and MSM. What is the difference between the two.
That being said, awards given, per regulation, is not about what was done but level of impact. There are but a small handful of medals that are rank specific. That being said, can a SPC get an MSM? Yes. Can a SPC get a BS? Yes. Should a SPC in Iraq (for example) that leads a Team of 3 pax of Finance get a BSM over a CPL that leads a Fire Team of 3 pax? I was a SGT in a SFC, and then SSG in a SFC, slot (in the same unit). I was in charge of a grand total of 10 Enlisted (out of a 13 pax unit) as the Detachment Sergeant. I was submitted for an MSM twice that was downgraded to an ARCOM. My last deployment, I was a SFC in charge of one SGT and was given an MSM as my EOT award.
Was this right? Was this wrong?
That being said, awards given, per regulation, is not about what was done but level of impact. There are but a small handful of medals that are rank specific. That being said, can a SPC get an MSM? Yes. Can a SPC get a BS? Yes. Should a SPC in Iraq (for example) that leads a Team of 3 pax of Finance get a BSM over a CPL that leads a Fire Team of 3 pax? I was a SGT in a SFC, and then SSG in a SFC, slot (in the same unit). I was in charge of a grand total of 10 Enlisted (out of a 13 pax unit) as the Detachment Sergeant. I was submitted for an MSM twice that was downgraded to an ARCOM. My last deployment, I was a SFC in charge of one SGT and was given an MSM as my EOT award.
Was this right? Was this wrong?
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MSG Thomas Currie
MSG (Join to see): "There are but a small handful of medals that are rank specific."
In theory that is true. But I rarely saw any unit were that was actually the fact, especially not among the awards for meritorious service.
Some units might occasionally downgrade an end of tour award for an exceptionally bad individual but in nearly every TO&E unit, awards for NCOs and officers were 99% based on rank or occasionally on position. For TDA units in CONUS awards were based on rank, position and MOS.
In theory that is true. But I rarely saw any unit were that was actually the fact, especially not among the awards for meritorious service.
Some units might occasionally downgrade an end of tour award for an exceptionally bad individual but in nearly every TO&E unit, awards for NCOs and officers were 99% based on rank or occasionally on position. For TDA units in CONUS awards were based on rank, position and MOS.
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SPC (Join to see)
I've heard of a few instances of SPC and SGT receiving an MSM, and quite frankly it impressed everyone who heard of it. Not because of the Soldiers actions specifically, but because seldom does anyone believe they warrant it due to rank and that top down would not let that fly. The juniors and NCO's who received the BSM are all V's though, and while I didn't see the recommendations I imagine well deserved.
I've also seen 1LT's who were lost in the sauce be awarded an MSM for their level of responsibility. Their level of responsibility is their SNCO's and fellow officers covered down on their screw ups. Nice enough people, didn't abuse their rank on the lowers, just heavily inexperienced and making mistakes. Nothing against their character, they'll learn as they go, but did they warrant an MSM?
I've also seen units put stipulations on awards such as:
- Affect Company, COA
- Affect Battalion, AAM
- Affect Battalion in Patch Authorized Zone, AAM w/ C
- Affect Brigade, ARCOM
- Affect Brigade in Patch Authorized Zone, ARCOM w/ C
- Affect ESC or Division, MSM
- Affect ESC or Division in Patch Authorized Zone, BSM
So one could argue that level of impact is worthy of the award in this regard. Company level? You're trash get a COA. Nothing you do at company is worth tin. Which in my opinion is a poor way to do it but there it is.
The rest, ok you're affecting higher you get awarded higher. To a degree that makes sense, but it throws out effort, extra duties, and volunteered work put in.
On the flip of that though I have also personally witnessed S1 try to get awards downgraded because, "E5 and E6 don't deserve MSM's and E3's and E4's don't get ARCOM's." In direct violation of the words in the reg they said that.
Regarding your downgrades, I have also seen 638's submitted knowing they would be downgraded. The recommender submitted an ARCOM knowing their troop would only get an AAM but knowing that it would only be downgraded to an AAM instead of a COA. Now I can't say one way or the other if that was your case involving the MSM, because I have seen that, but those scenarios do exist.
Was it right that you received an MSM as an E7 while only being in charge of one SGT? I'm sure you were in charge of other responsibilities but if that's all it was then maybe no but I'm lacking context. Should you have received them as a SGT/SSG performing above your grade? Probably. Another way I have seen some look at it as getting higher awards later is compensation for everything you did great when you were lower. Kind of a cop out but it's a way of looking at it.
So I think we have to admit to ourselves that there is a cultural issue regarding rank and awards. Is this every unit? No. Are there good officers and NCO's out there pushing awards for people who earned them legitimately? Absolutely. I've seen that too.
Another question to ask, is there any harm in altering the criteria for the next war? As CPT (Join to see) pointed out the BSM regs have been changed, all of the awards have changed since originally implemented. On the flip side of course, is there anything wrong with keeping it the same? Regardless of change we know that units out there will not follow the reg or integrity regarding awards and that's just how it is. We also know that there are units that do hold those standards high.
I've also seen 1LT's who were lost in the sauce be awarded an MSM for their level of responsibility. Their level of responsibility is their SNCO's and fellow officers covered down on their screw ups. Nice enough people, didn't abuse their rank on the lowers, just heavily inexperienced and making mistakes. Nothing against their character, they'll learn as they go, but did they warrant an MSM?
I've also seen units put stipulations on awards such as:
- Affect Company, COA
- Affect Battalion, AAM
- Affect Battalion in Patch Authorized Zone, AAM w/ C
- Affect Brigade, ARCOM
- Affect Brigade in Patch Authorized Zone, ARCOM w/ C
- Affect ESC or Division, MSM
- Affect ESC or Division in Patch Authorized Zone, BSM
So one could argue that level of impact is worthy of the award in this regard. Company level? You're trash get a COA. Nothing you do at company is worth tin. Which in my opinion is a poor way to do it but there it is.
The rest, ok you're affecting higher you get awarded higher. To a degree that makes sense, but it throws out effort, extra duties, and volunteered work put in.
On the flip of that though I have also personally witnessed S1 try to get awards downgraded because, "E5 and E6 don't deserve MSM's and E3's and E4's don't get ARCOM's." In direct violation of the words in the reg they said that.
Regarding your downgrades, I have also seen 638's submitted knowing they would be downgraded. The recommender submitted an ARCOM knowing their troop would only get an AAM but knowing that it would only be downgraded to an AAM instead of a COA. Now I can't say one way or the other if that was your case involving the MSM, because I have seen that, but those scenarios do exist.
Was it right that you received an MSM as an E7 while only being in charge of one SGT? I'm sure you were in charge of other responsibilities but if that's all it was then maybe no but I'm lacking context. Should you have received them as a SGT/SSG performing above your grade? Probably. Another way I have seen some look at it as getting higher awards later is compensation for everything you did great when you were lower. Kind of a cop out but it's a way of looking at it.
So I think we have to admit to ourselves that there is a cultural issue regarding rank and awards. Is this every unit? No. Are there good officers and NCO's out there pushing awards for people who earned them legitimately? Absolutely. I've seen that too.
Another question to ask, is there any harm in altering the criteria for the next war? As CPT (Join to see) pointed out the BSM regs have been changed, all of the awards have changed since originally implemented. On the flip side of course, is there anything wrong with keeping it the same? Regardless of change we know that units out there will not follow the reg or integrity regarding awards and that's just how it is. We also know that there are units that do hold those standards high.
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YES...I have seen them awarded for just deploying to a combat zone and doing your damn job. Too many people have these displayed and when I ask them where it was awarded and they tell me I just go ...Oh OK...and walk away shaking my head. Plus they seem to be rank based as well which I am totally agains. There is no standard across DoD for the awards. Subjective at best. Just do away with all the medals except Purple Hearts and MOH. They are definitive and scrutinzed at many levels prior to award. Everything else is just subjective in nature. IMHO.
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Suspended Profile
Never much cared about awards I’ve gotten or may get, don’t really care much about what anyone else gets
Except my Humanitarian Service Medal
Except my Humanitarian Service Medal
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I would keep things like they are now. You don't get a Bronze Star for complete a tour. You usually get it for Valor. You get an MSM for exceptional performance over and above in performing above and beyond many others at a high level
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SPC (Join to see)
I think we could keep things as they are if we worked on changing the culture of how we view awards across the force.
Though the BSM can be awarded for merit like the MSM so long as it's awarded without the V device.
Though the BSM can be awarded for merit like the MSM so long as it's awarded without the V device.
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I was recommended for a MSM for a really big deal shortly before I retired (not going into details, but it was a big deal). Because it was close to my retirement, my CO decided to combine the specific MSM with an "end of tour" award.
I actually saw the folder containing the 2 different recommendations (1 for MSM, 1 for NCM end of tour) with a sticky note on it saying "E7 = NCM", signed LtCol Douchebag.
Meanwhile every E7 and above returning from Irag/Afghanistan in other units were awarded BSMs for conducting muster and making sure the gear got counted. Good for them, not mad, just there seemed to be no rhyme or reason for who got what.
It really just came down to being in a command that only deployed assets/small teams with a CO (Supply Officer) that had never been in a deployable unit.
I actually saw the folder containing the 2 different recommendations (1 for MSM, 1 for NCM end of tour) with a sticky note on it saying "E7 = NCM", signed LtCol Douchebag.
Meanwhile every E7 and above returning from Irag/Afghanistan in other units were awarded BSMs for conducting muster and making sure the gear got counted. Good for them, not mad, just there seemed to be no rhyme or reason for who got what.
It really just came down to being in a command that only deployed assets/small teams with a CO (Supply Officer) that had never been in a deployable unit.
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Hearing stories or personally witnessing are very different. Unless the individual can emphatically state that an individual and his or her command blockages an award they don’t have much to say. Awards are designed with guidance. The write up has to match the regulation. I have never seen the assertion that you speak to, I have only heard of it. In a few Theaters I supported awards for which I was not present and had the assumption that someone did not leave the wire, unless I was with them 24/7 I cannot attest.
If someone wears an award of which people falsified documents they should be ashamed of themselves.
Unless one has proof they should let it go. Ensure that you follow the rules.
If someone wears an award of which people falsified documents they should be ashamed of themselves.
Unless one has proof they should let it go. Ensure that you follow the rules.
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I think the system was working just about rite.
We reviewed the awards prior to them going to BDE and Div and found very few that were inflated. It took a lot of time and attention.
We reviewed the awards prior to them going to BDE and Div and found very few that were inflated. It took a lot of time and attention.
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Both my sons were combat deployed - Infantry (3 tours) and Truck Driver (1 tour). Both lamented how SOME NCO's (Infantry) or most NCO 's (Transportation) who never left the wire, got BSM's. The three Infnatry units my sone was in were strict about them - Transportation virtually all SSG's and above automatically got the BSM, regardless of their duties.
It was similar in Nam ... we had a Dental Tech who was NEVER outside the wire get a Navy Commendation with V Device, and clerks in Division Rear getting them as well, and even Bronze Stars/V and supposedly, Silver Stars. In Nam, it seemed you were either in a unit that gave awards like candy, or others as the exception. All grunt Marines and grunt corpsman did get the CAR (Combat Action Ribbon). I will say, the Army gave me the same points for it was they would for a CIB.
All that said, there should be no "candy awards," period.
It was similar in Nam ... we had a Dental Tech who was NEVER outside the wire get a Navy Commendation with V Device, and clerks in Division Rear getting them as well, and even Bronze Stars/V and supposedly, Silver Stars. In Nam, it seemed you were either in a unit that gave awards like candy, or others as the exception. All grunt Marines and grunt corpsman did get the CAR (Combat Action Ribbon). I will say, the Army gave me the same points for it was they would for a CIB.
All that said, there should be no "candy awards," period.
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SPC (Join to see)
Agreed, awards shouldn't just be handed out but there are many stories of rank = award and that's just the wrong way to do it for any unit or any MOS. Merit = award.
I remember a MSG who was angry they got an AAM when there was a SPC who got an ARCOM. Of course people sometimes forget that lowers are in the AO when they speak and flat out told the guy that you didn't really do much besides be here. You didn't lead many troops, you didn't volunteer, you didn't get your guys out on extra tasks, etc etc. Whereas SPC Snuffy volunteered extra time for various extra duties. The MSG even claimed that after a certain rank you don't get AAM's anymore, they're too low.
So in that instance, and of course you can only see things from your point of view but it sounded like merit won out in that case.
Similar thing happened for a 2LT fresh out of BOLC who was recommended for an MSM, downgraded to ARCOM whereas a SSG who was busting their hump and taking on extra duties had their ARCOM upgrade to an MSM.
I've read about blanket awards and sometimes it makes sense in World War II or Vietnam, and sometimes like you described it makes no sense.
I remember a MSG who was angry they got an AAM when there was a SPC who got an ARCOM. Of course people sometimes forget that lowers are in the AO when they speak and flat out told the guy that you didn't really do much besides be here. You didn't lead many troops, you didn't volunteer, you didn't get your guys out on extra tasks, etc etc. Whereas SPC Snuffy volunteered extra time for various extra duties. The MSG even claimed that after a certain rank you don't get AAM's anymore, they're too low.
So in that instance, and of course you can only see things from your point of view but it sounded like merit won out in that case.
Similar thing happened for a 2LT fresh out of BOLC who was recommended for an MSM, downgraded to ARCOM whereas a SSG who was busting their hump and taking on extra duties had their ARCOM upgrade to an MSM.
I've read about blanket awards and sometimes it makes sense in World War II or Vietnam, and sometimes like you described it makes no sense.
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