Posted on Apr 12, 2015
Does God exist? Or, is there a God?
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What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
God
Religion
Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 332
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I used to believe in god , however i lost my faith when my family collapsed and now i dont talk to my father , I havent seen my mother in about 25 yrs , my brother dont wanna talk to me and all my friends separated them selves from me when i deployed for the first time. And all i used to do is pray when i was a kid everynight beggin GOD for a family and love and peace. so in the end I dont believe that there is a GOD but i do believe that Jesus existed (only based on recent research and documentaries ).
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PV2 Violet Case
When I grew up my father did not want any more children so I lived with my aunt and grandma for the first little over yr of my life. I spent most of my time with them and called them and my sister moms. My older sister was 11 yrs older then I am. My brother 7 yrs older. My grandma and aunt read their Bible every night and was such loved women. My mother on the other hand went to church on Sundays and played with wgi boards on the side. I was a confused mess as I grew up on the religious aspects of life. My family always had me on the outside of their circle and barely call me. If I hear my sisters voice on the phone someone is almost dead or dead. My dad I have not seen in over 4 yrs. But I do not base my life on them. I have many who love me just the same. All my belief came from life itself. l am not sure why so many people argue about this subject. Not sure why people can not just respect one another and live your life I live mine. I will love others no matter who you are. Is that ok?
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SPC Nathan Freeman
SFC (Join to see) I understand your pain. God also understands your pain. There is evil in the world, for sure. God is good at fixing what is broken. Don't give up on Him
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SPC Nathan Freeman
Cpl Robert Lowes I think some of the "evidence you have seen is propaganda. Show me what they showed you and I will show you the truth
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The God you're seeking evidence for doesn't exist. There is no omnibenevolent God in scripture.
Reading most of the comments I did shows that the discussion tended to focus on cosmology and that is a completely different question to ponder. Of course there were the nomral discussions of the source of morality as well, also another discussion completely.
Reading most of the comments I did shows that the discussion tended to focus on cosmology and that is a completely different question to ponder. Of course there were the nomral discussions of the source of morality as well, also another discussion completely.
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CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I appreciate the clarification. It's a challenge to answer such a broad question. It returns to a discussion of definitions. I'll ask a few more questions to clarify your original question.
1. What is your definition of God.
2. What would you consider evidentiary?
3. What is your purpose for the question? (the reason for this question is to really determine how best to address the question).
The thing about questions about God are that they have an origin or trigger. Perhaps one wishes to truly be provided with evidence about God. Perhaps they just want to see what sort of arguments they can spur. It helps a respondent to provide a cogent response that meets the needs and desires of the questioner.
I think you summarized why the God of the bible would not be considered omnibenevolent well.
You're very welcome.
1. What is your definition of God.
2. What would you consider evidentiary?
3. What is your purpose for the question? (the reason for this question is to really determine how best to address the question).
The thing about questions about God are that they have an origin or trigger. Perhaps one wishes to truly be provided with evidence about God. Perhaps they just want to see what sort of arguments they can spur. It helps a respondent to provide a cogent response that meets the needs and desires of the questioner.
I think you summarized why the God of the bible would not be considered omnibenevolent well.
You're very welcome.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
CH (CPT) (Join to see),
1. My definition of God for the purposes of this discussion was delineated in my OP. Personally, I trust in Jehovah.
2. I did not use the term 'evidentiary.' I asked for "arguments for or against the existence of God." I leave it to the respondents to determine which are the arguments they wish to provide.
3. I am not asking for the sake of informing my own decision on the matter. I know what I believe, and why. I do enjoy intellectual or philosophical debates. I attended a very conservative Christian liberal arts college, and I majored in Political Science. In one of my Senior level classes, the professor engaged the class in a planned debate on the existence of God: he argued against God, we argued for His existence. The professor won. I found it to be an enjoyable and valuable experience. I thought the discussion on RP would be engaging, and perhaps I could learn a bit about both sides of the arguments. I hope you don't conclude that I just wanted to see sparks fly, as this is not the case at all.
1. My definition of God for the purposes of this discussion was delineated in my OP. Personally, I trust in Jehovah.
2. I did not use the term 'evidentiary.' I asked for "arguments for or against the existence of God." I leave it to the respondents to determine which are the arguments they wish to provide.
3. I am not asking for the sake of informing my own decision on the matter. I know what I believe, and why. I do enjoy intellectual or philosophical debates. I attended a very conservative Christian liberal arts college, and I majored in Political Science. In one of my Senior level classes, the professor engaged the class in a planned debate on the existence of God: he argued against God, we argued for His existence. The professor won. I found it to be an enjoyable and valuable experience. I thought the discussion on RP would be engaging, and perhaps I could learn a bit about both sides of the arguments. I hope you don't conclude that I just wanted to see sparks fly, as this is not the case at all.
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CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I think it's an interesting discussion topic. Certainly an opportunity for those who delight in being inflammatory. I will say this, most people of faith have not developed skills necessary for defending their faith. The art of debate is one that isn't considered important in a world where louder is generally considered better.
Here would be my argument:
I've traveled the world (thanks to the military) and every one (generally) I've come into contact with feels they have a purpose in life. Certainly one can gain a sense of purpose without God, but generally a shared sense of common purpose comes from outside of ourselves. One may look to survival of the group, advancement of society or even just the belief that there is a sense of morality.
Based upon the observations of my own life, I've come through circumstances that should have destroyed me. A belief that there is a purpose outside of me, as well as what could best be considered a manipulation of circumstances from something outside me leads me to feel God is watching out for me.
Using principles of mathematics causes me to consider that while there is always a chance that things happen randomly, it is one of the more unlikely scenarios that happenstance continues to win out over design.
Finally, for me, I believe because I choose to believe. For me, the most important words in the bible are "In the beginning, God..." if one cannot approach the bible with faith in those words, the rest is meaningless.
Here would be my argument:
I've traveled the world (thanks to the military) and every one (generally) I've come into contact with feels they have a purpose in life. Certainly one can gain a sense of purpose without God, but generally a shared sense of common purpose comes from outside of ourselves. One may look to survival of the group, advancement of society or even just the belief that there is a sense of morality.
Based upon the observations of my own life, I've come through circumstances that should have destroyed me. A belief that there is a purpose outside of me, as well as what could best be considered a manipulation of circumstances from something outside me leads me to feel God is watching out for me.
Using principles of mathematics causes me to consider that while there is always a chance that things happen randomly, it is one of the more unlikely scenarios that happenstance continues to win out over design.
Finally, for me, I believe because I choose to believe. For me, the most important words in the bible are "In the beginning, God..." if one cannot approach the bible with faith in those words, the rest is meaningless.
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CW3 (Join to see)
CH (CPT) (Join to see) - Sir,
You by far have explained your position as eloquently and succinctly as any of us could expect of a man of the cloth. So I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts on such a radioactive thread.
However, none of what you said validates any type of a god by any definition. And you as far as the math goes, you are forgetting Quantum Mechanics that show irrefutably that the entire universe is in fact based on randomness and probabilities.
You by far have explained your position as eloquently and succinctly as any of us could expect of a man of the cloth. So I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts on such a radioactive thread.
However, none of what you said validates any type of a god by any definition. And you as far as the math goes, you are forgetting Quantum Mechanics that show irrefutably that the entire universe is in fact based on randomness and probabilities.
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No, god does not exist. The book of bible is a product of many written gospels from the view and opinions of many so-called eyewitnesses who had died decades before anything was put on a scroll. Who’s to say how accurate these written scripture are in tribute to Jesus life? There is no proof that the bible is god's word to humanity. If there is a god, why does he speak in plural? In Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let 'us' make man in 'our' image, after 'our' likeness", if there is only one powerful god as it is taught in the bible, he would said "I", "me", and "my".
If there is a god, where does he live? The universe is vast, cosmologist and physicist convey that, to comprehend just how enormous the universe is, imagine a galaxy is the size of a grain of sand; the universe is the size of the entire ocean on Earth. In addition, if you look at the picture of our galaxy, our solar system is but a grain of sand in the Milky Way. It is also said, there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches on Earth.
I believe that by chance, since our planet happened to be in the CHZ (Continuously Habitable Zone). This allowed life to flourished, giving life to creatures of all kind until humanity became the dominate species due to our intelligences. Another possibility is that we were created by a much higher and more advance civilization/species since human history does not go back more than a few hundred thousand years and Earth is billions of years old. Since the last great extinction was estimated to be a dozen or so millions years ago with the end of the dinosaurs and our history begin a few hundred thousand years ago, what happen to the time in between the millions of years and the hundred thousand years?
From the beginning of human history, a few hundred thousand years ago until now. It basically took human hundreds of thousands of years to become technically advance and the last hundred year from 1900-2000, we excel tremendously and technologically. From airplanes, TV, microwave oven, put a man on the moon, to internet. Does god really exist? I would have to say no because science has proven otherwise.
If there is a god, where does he live? The universe is vast, cosmologist and physicist convey that, to comprehend just how enormous the universe is, imagine a galaxy is the size of a grain of sand; the universe is the size of the entire ocean on Earth. In addition, if you look at the picture of our galaxy, our solar system is but a grain of sand in the Milky Way. It is also said, there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches on Earth.
I believe that by chance, since our planet happened to be in the CHZ (Continuously Habitable Zone). This allowed life to flourished, giving life to creatures of all kind until humanity became the dominate species due to our intelligences. Another possibility is that we were created by a much higher and more advance civilization/species since human history does not go back more than a few hundred thousand years and Earth is billions of years old. Since the last great extinction was estimated to be a dozen or so millions years ago with the end of the dinosaurs and our history begin a few hundred thousand years ago, what happen to the time in between the millions of years and the hundred thousand years?
From the beginning of human history, a few hundred thousand years ago until now. It basically took human hundreds of thousands of years to become technically advance and the last hundred year from 1900-2000, we excel tremendously and technologically. From airplanes, TV, microwave oven, put a man on the moon, to internet. Does god really exist? I would have to say no because science has proven otherwise.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
Cpl Tou Lee Yang, thanks for checking out Simon Greenleaf.
I'm not going to address everything you said.
Just one thing: "Throughout history, religion is the main culprit in the cause of war." This is a common myth. In their "Encyclopedia of Wars," authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare.
When one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage of wars with a religious cause is cut by more than half to 3.23%.
http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/09/18/is-religion-really-the-number-one-cause-of-war/
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html
The three volume set is available on Amazon, if you wish to examine it further.
I'm not going to address everything you said.
Just one thing: "Throughout history, religion is the main culprit in the cause of war." This is a common myth. In their "Encyclopedia of Wars," authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare.
When one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage of wars with a religious cause is cut by more than half to 3.23%.
http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/09/18/is-religion-really-the-number-one-cause-of-war/
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html
The three volume set is available on Amazon, if you wish to examine it further.
Is religion REALLY the number one cause of war? - jonsorensen.net
I have had two different people on Facebook tell me that they believe religion is the cause of most wars. One friend of mine said “Wars start because of religion and land correct? Tell me a war that didn’t have religion involved?” while another commented, “Which has killed more people, Jon? The Bible or guns?” …
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SPC Nathan Freeman
Cpl Tou Lee Yang Think of the Trinity as an Infantry battalion. You have three distinct sections, Command, infantry and support. The men who run these three sections are equal. Any one of them could do the job of the other. They are three sections of the same battalion but they each have a specific role which is equally important but distinctly different. The Father is the command team, Jesus would be the infantry and the Holy Spirit is support. Three command roles: one battalion.
As for the historicity and authorship of the gospels, the evidence actually points to the gospels being written before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 79 AD Which puts them well within the lifespan of the disciples. Jesus predicted that the Temple would be torn down and not one stone would be left on top of the other. Don't you think the author would have mentioned that? There are other evidences as well including letters written by different church fathers quoting portions of the Gospels within the first century.
The UCMJ has rules against "borrowing" rank from superiors. That is to say you can get in trouble for saying "Gunny said this" when in fact he didn't. People borrow authority all the time to do mischief. That's why we have laws against such things.
Religion is just like power, money, law, sex or even plants. You can take anything good and use it in a bad way. That doesn't make the good thing evil. it just shows how eveil the person is who is using it.
As for the historicity and authorship of the gospels, the evidence actually points to the gospels being written before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 79 AD Which puts them well within the lifespan of the disciples. Jesus predicted that the Temple would be torn down and not one stone would be left on top of the other. Don't you think the author would have mentioned that? There are other evidences as well including letters written by different church fathers quoting portions of the Gospels within the first century.
The UCMJ has rules against "borrowing" rank from superiors. That is to say you can get in trouble for saying "Gunny said this" when in fact he didn't. People borrow authority all the time to do mischief. That's why we have laws against such things.
Religion is just like power, money, law, sex or even plants. You can take anything good and use it in a bad way. That doesn't make the good thing evil. it just shows how eveil the person is who is using it.
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There are NO good answers as to why there IS a God.
Equally, there are NO good answers as to why there is NOT a God.
Based on 99 [login to see] 9999999% of all reasonably relevant religious writings, you will get the answer to whether there is, or is not, a God after it is too late for you to do anything about it.
You either "believe" or you don't "believe".
That's why religions are called "faiths" because you have to take what they tell you on faith WITHOUT factual backups.
I don't fault anyone for believing and I don't fault anyone for not believing.
I do fault people for attempting to force me to believe what they believe because they believe that their belief gives them the right to dictate everyone else's beliefs regardless of what those other people believe their own belief gives them the right to do.
Equally, there are NO good answers as to why there is NOT a God.
Based on 99 [login to see] 9999999% of all reasonably relevant religious writings, you will get the answer to whether there is, or is not, a God after it is too late for you to do anything about it.
You either "believe" or you don't "believe".
That's why religions are called "faiths" because you have to take what they tell you on faith WITHOUT factual backups.
I don't fault anyone for believing and I don't fault anyone for not believing.
I do fault people for attempting to force me to believe what they believe because they believe that their belief gives them the right to dictate everyone else's beliefs regardless of what those other people believe their own belief gives them the right to do.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
Once you exercise faith, God reveals himself to you. Some people need evidence and I've got plenty of it. God reveals Himself every day and night in nature's complexity.
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COL Ted Mc
SPC Nathan Freeman - Once you "believe" then (generally) whatever you "believe" in will "reveal itself" to you. That is the nature of "belief".
Where it gets more difficult is to "believe" WITHOUT "evidence".
Once you have "evidence" you are no longer "believing".
You say "veals Himself every day and night in nature's complexity." - but can you be sure? Is it possible that that "complexity" is actually a diversion to hide the essential simplicity involved in the fact that "God" created everything approximately 0 [login to see] 001 seconds ago and that that creation involved the creation of all of the evidence which indicates that that creation happened much longer ago than that?
What I BELIEVE I believe.
What I KNOW I know.
The two are not the same at all.
Where it gets more difficult is to "believe" WITHOUT "evidence".
Once you have "evidence" you are no longer "believing".
You say "veals Himself every day and night in nature's complexity." - but can you be sure? Is it possible that that "complexity" is actually a diversion to hide the essential simplicity involved in the fact that "God" created everything approximately 0 [login to see] 001 seconds ago and that that creation involved the creation of all of the evidence which indicates that that creation happened much longer ago than that?
What I BELIEVE I believe.
What I KNOW I know.
The two are not the same at all.
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There is no such thing as an atheist in a combat zone. When people are being shot at, everyone is praying to someone.
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SrA Kelly Richard
Cool story Lt, let me know when you actually see some combat. Doubtful you ever will as your chances of seeing combat are just as good as mine, I mean with you being an officer and me being a woman. I did take logic, and even my professor couldn't shake my beliefs from me. See, my brother and sister are both atheists and we get along great. But I really can't stand the bible thumper equivalent of an atheist whose life goal is to prove any one of faith that they are wrong and shouldn't believe. I don't attack you for your beliefs or lack of, yet you still find it absolutely necessary to make such snide comments. And quite frankly I don't have the time or energy to fight with some kid fresh out of school about something neither one of us will ever be able to prove or disprove eachother. My original comment was not my own, I was quoting an 0311 that just came back to LNK from kiljakhi. I hope you find peace within yourself whether you are a Christian, atheist, jewish, pastafarian, Muslim, or buddhist. I wish you well and goodnight.
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SPC (Join to see)
Hey there! howdy! I'm an Atheist, I've been in combat and in all my fire fights you know what I was asking for? It wasn't a god, it was CAS. Close Air Support is significantly more helpful in killing the enemy than deities.
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SPC (Join to see)
SrA Kelly Richard Well, if you're going to take random SMs advice on how the universe works, then take mine: There's probably no god, so don't waste your time with that ridiculousness and enjoy your life.
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I believe it's not hard to see God - when you think about the design of the universe or even the human body, or the miracle of birth, there are just too many to list - there is just no other explanation for me.
Then there is the word of God himself (the Bible) which was written by men who actually walked and talked w/Jesus - who exists not only in the Bible but other historical documents - and when I read the Bible and do what it says, I am filled with a peace and joy that cannot be explained by present day culture.
So to me - it's pretty clear God exists in my heart and I'd like nothing more than for Him to exist in yours too.
Then there is the word of God himself (the Bible) which was written by men who actually walked and talked w/Jesus - who exists not only in the Bible but other historical documents - and when I read the Bible and do what it says, I am filled with a peace and joy that cannot be explained by present day culture.
So to me - it's pretty clear God exists in my heart and I'd like nothing more than for Him to exist in yours too.
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I look at this philosophically. The argument of the exsistence of "God" has been debated for a long time. I take this in to consideration the name god represents all beliefs.
One argument by Descartes, in his Fifth Meditation, wrote that the conception of a perfect being who lacks existence is like imagining a triangle whose interior angles don't sum to 180 degrees (he was big on the notion of innate ideas and the doctrine of clear and distinct perception). So, because we have the idea of a supremely perfect being, we have to conclude that a supremely perfect being exists; to Descarte, God's existence was just as obvious, logical, and self-evident as the most basic mathematical truths.
I am drawn to this defintion as to the exsistence of god or God.
Finally, by "God" or "god," we're not talking about any specific religious deity.
Freedom of Religion is free
One argument by Descartes, in his Fifth Meditation, wrote that the conception of a perfect being who lacks existence is like imagining a triangle whose interior angles don't sum to 180 degrees (he was big on the notion of innate ideas and the doctrine of clear and distinct perception). So, because we have the idea of a supremely perfect being, we have to conclude that a supremely perfect being exists; to Descarte, God's existence was just as obvious, logical, and self-evident as the most basic mathematical truths.
I am drawn to this defintion as to the exsistence of god or God.
Finally, by "God" or "god," we're not talking about any specific religious deity.
Freedom of Religion is free
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Lt Col Allen Naugle
If God created all that is, then by definition God is outside of that creation, and therefore not subject to the mathematics that uphold that creation. By extension, God created those mathematics. God is outside space and time, and not subject to the limitations of space and time. If there is a God and He created, then I don't think what I've written can be logically refuted.
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I am not quite as eloquent as most on here so to try and answer the question posed by SPC Henry would be, well, downright funny. Here I sit thinking of it this way, I will not even try to argue the existence of God because you cannot argue faith. Salvation is from God and comes by grace through faith. His grace, my Fatih!
Think about this ... why would so many highly intelligent people spend their entire lives trying to prove something doesn't exist? That really makes no sense to me.
Think about this ... why would so many highly intelligent people spend their entire lives trying to prove something doesn't exist? That really makes no sense to me.
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SSgt (Join to see)
>>>why would so many highly intelligent people spend their entire lives trying to prove something doesn't exist? That really makes no sense to me.
--->I don't doubt the sincerity most of them have. I believe they actually believe in the god they say they believe in, but that belief doesn't make the god any more likely to actually exist outside of their head than if they didn't believe. If god exists, he exists regardless of anyone's belief. I submit the god of abraham doesn't exist, because there is so much evidence that those who created that myth and those who continue perpetuating it are full of shyte.
--->I don't doubt the sincerity most of them have. I believe they actually believe in the god they say they believe in, but that belief doesn't make the god any more likely to actually exist outside of their head than if they didn't believe. If god exists, he exists regardless of anyone's belief. I submit the god of abraham doesn't exist, because there is so much evidence that those who created that myth and those who continue perpetuating it are full of shyte.
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SSgt (Join to see)
All you have to do to see the bible has been changed repeatedly over the years is to purchase bibles published in different generations and you can easily see the changes.
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CPT Carl Kisely
CPO Levoy Morring, right now in the middle east, there are people convinced that their version of god and salvation is the correct one. Â Some of these people take that conviction to a level that justifies horrific violence. Â Now, the reality is their god is no more real than any other. Â But a devout Christian, for example, trying to deal with religious extremism or terrorism has all of their work ahead of them in trying to educate others that their religion is false. Â On the other hand, once you critically examine your own religion, and realize what it was about the religion that maintained your belief, then you can understand others. Â Once we realize that Christianity is false, and why people believe it, only then do we have the understanding of why their religion is also false, and how to educate against it. Â Intelligent people around the world have realized how religion hurts civilization, in radical or in more benign ways, and are working to educate people on reality. Â
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CW3 (Join to see)
Maj Carl ballinger, my apologies for the late response, been busy. I base my comment on a couple books that I read and a few Discovery Chanel shows that were rather enthralling on this subject. But just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my fourth point of contact, I went onto the Vaticans website. They seem like a credible source on this subject right? Well, after selecting English and entering a couple search criteria, it turns out I was wrong. It was 40 people over 2000 years that wrote the bible and edited it and re edited it.
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Article 1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Article 11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Excerpts from, The Articles of Faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints (often called the Mormons)
Article 11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Excerpts from, The Articles of Faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints (often called the Mormons)
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SSgt (Join to see)
If that were not a lie (the articles being a lie of the mormon church) then why did they throw so much money and political power behind the prop 8 campaign in CA. If article 11 were not a lie, then they woudn't have any position on whether non mormons should be able to marry the person they love.
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No.
I guess I should edit this to make it into a real comment.
There is no God, god, gods, any sort of deity or creator. None of those things are possible, none of them exist. The questions that Man has always tried to answer, and has answered for himself in the form of fairy tales, are, "Where did my consciousness come from?" and, "What happens to it when I die? What is that experience?"
Quite frankly, we're incapable of imagining what nothingness is like; it's not black and silent, because those are experiences of consciousness. Are animals as sentient as we are, even if not as intelligent? Do they simply mirror feelings without the capacity for thought? (It can be argued that thought is the child of language; without the language necessary to fully form thoughts, we're left to our most basic feelings, like small children.)
The simple answer is that animals clearly have some level of consciousness, though which ones do or don't is a difficult line to draw. Cats? Sure. Flies? Who knows?
What happens to our consciousness when we die? It disappears, and we'll never understand what that's like. How did we become conscious? The same way other animals did, but there's no way to figure out what that threshold is; maybe we'll stumble across it some time.
Religion exists because people refuse to say, "I don't know." People in power want to have answers, or else the led will refuse to follow at some point. That's how religions spring up. There's a fear and uncertainty in admitting we don't know. There is a deep existential fear in knowing that this short and imperfect life is all there is, but that's just the truth.
No, there is no God. Religion is a lie, created for the comfort and control of the masses.
I guess I should edit this to make it into a real comment.
There is no God, god, gods, any sort of deity or creator. None of those things are possible, none of them exist. The questions that Man has always tried to answer, and has answered for himself in the form of fairy tales, are, "Where did my consciousness come from?" and, "What happens to it when I die? What is that experience?"
Quite frankly, we're incapable of imagining what nothingness is like; it's not black and silent, because those are experiences of consciousness. Are animals as sentient as we are, even if not as intelligent? Do they simply mirror feelings without the capacity for thought? (It can be argued that thought is the child of language; without the language necessary to fully form thoughts, we're left to our most basic feelings, like small children.)
The simple answer is that animals clearly have some level of consciousness, though which ones do or don't is a difficult line to draw. Cats? Sure. Flies? Who knows?
What happens to our consciousness when we die? It disappears, and we'll never understand what that's like. How did we become conscious? The same way other animals did, but there's no way to figure out what that threshold is; maybe we'll stumble across it some time.
Religion exists because people refuse to say, "I don't know." People in power want to have answers, or else the led will refuse to follow at some point. That's how religions spring up. There's a fear and uncertainty in admitting we don't know. There is a deep existential fear in knowing that this short and imperfect life is all there is, but that's just the truth.
No, there is no God. Religion is a lie, created for the comfort and control of the masses.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I'm not attempting to reason away anything at all. I've studied religion for 4 years, and concluded without question that it's all made up many years ago by people in power as a method of popular control. I would have to go against my logic to even consider a possibility of a divine Creator. I tried to pretend to believe when I was younger, but it didn't stick.
When I studied, I realized that religions change at the same time and rate as empires do, and that the most successful conquerors allowed defeated foes to keep some piece of their own beliefs, but tied them into those of the victors. I mentioned the Enuma Elish in a different post; it is a Sumerian creation myth that dates back as early as the oldest cuneiform writing. Those tablets are named for their first two words; enuma elish translates to "In the beginning" - it should sound familiar for a reason, though I doubt most people would have heard of Marduk and Tiamat. I'm sure they've heard of Gilgamesh's great flood in some manner or another. (Eridu Genesis)
When I studied, I realized that religions change at the same time and rate as empires do, and that the most successful conquerors allowed defeated foes to keep some piece of their own beliefs, but tied them into those of the victors. I mentioned the Enuma Elish in a different post; it is a Sumerian creation myth that dates back as early as the oldest cuneiform writing. Those tablets are named for their first two words; enuma elish translates to "In the beginning" - it should sound familiar for a reason, though I doubt most people would have heard of Marduk and Tiamat. I'm sure they've heard of Gilgamesh's great flood in some manner or another. (Eridu Genesis)
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CPT Jack Durish
LCDR (Join to see) I love the absolute certainty in your statement that "There is no God..." It mirrors the absolute certainty of those who claim otherwise with equal proof. I can't imagine living with certainty. Is it comfortable?
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LCDR (Join to see)
It opens more doors intellectually, in my opinion. If you think there is, or there may be a divine creator, why would you continue to investigate the source of all life, or the origin of the universe? If you believe scripture, you already have your answer to those questions. If you reject completely the idea that men thousands of years ago knew all the answers, you're more able to seek a physical truth to answer those questions. Or, rather, an astronomer would be; I'm not smart enough to answer either of those.
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LTC Stephen F.
James, skepticism is healthy. Much of scientific and mathematical progress over the millennia has resulted from individuals who had doubts about the truths being expounded or the rationale behind those truths. Whenever scientific positions are considered to be absolute truth or dogma then they become a religion. The irony about science is that as time, information, and technical capabilities progress much of what had held as dogmatic truth has had to be modified with resistance from those who held that truth to be absolute.
Literature tends to be more fixed whether it be the writings of Homer, Julius Caesar, Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Bible [Old Testament and New Testament], the Koran, etc.
One of the marvelous things about the universe and everything in it, is that there is more than enough to be learned and explored for creative and inquisitive minds to work on to improve knowledge, improve living conditions, etc.
The men who were inspired by God to write the books of the Bible wrote down observations about what they saw, what God told them, etc. The writers understood and in many cases explicitly stated that they did not really understand God or His workings. They recorded what He told them in their own languages - the main and plan things were clearly stated [God refers to Himself as I am - the self existent one who has always existed and will always exist].
Literature tends to be more fixed whether it be the writings of Homer, Julius Caesar, Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Bible [Old Testament and New Testament], the Koran, etc.
One of the marvelous things about the universe and everything in it, is that there is more than enough to be learned and explored for creative and inquisitive minds to work on to improve knowledge, improve living conditions, etc.
The men who were inspired by God to write the books of the Bible wrote down observations about what they saw, what God told them, etc. The writers understood and in many cases explicitly stated that they did not really understand God or His workings. They recorded what He told them in their own languages - the main and plan things were clearly stated [God refers to Himself as I am - the self existent one who has always existed and will always exist].
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