Posted on May 1, 2017
Does the job of an officer really require a degree (excluding professional officers; Doctors, Nurses, Engineers, lawyers, etc..)?
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I'm about to graduate with my BS in Public Health this year. During my time in the Army, I observed my officers duties (Layouts, Writing Memo's/Power Points, guest starring on patrol, etc..) seem like they can be done without a college degree. (Excluding professionals). What part of officer training requires a degree? I believe we could send NCO's to OCS and they would do just fine. Do you?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 19
I'm of two minds on this subject. Having served in the Air Force where every officer had a Bachelors Degree and many had post-graduate education, I am inclined to view this as the "normal" condition for officers. (More on this later.) On the other hand, I was a pilot and for 3 years a pilot training instructor. Most all of what I did as a pilot could have been handled by a person without a 4-year degree. As an instructor pilot, I taught foreign and US students. Many of the foreign students had little or no education beyond their national equivalent of High School except for their military training. The non-degree students succeeded and failed about as often as those with bachelors degrees. The Army has proved this out with the success of their aviation warrant officer programs. They don't require a bachelors degree, but produce many successful military pilots. There's little about airmanship academics (the classroom part of pilot training) that I was taught in USAF pilot training that I hadn't already been exposed to in High School, Civil Air Patrol airmanship classes, or working on my private pilots license. Jet aircraft systems were more complicated than the Piper Cub or Cessna 150 I flew as a youngster, but the overall principles of flight, flight planning, navigation, weather, etc., were the same.
Back to the subject of officers requiring a bachelors degree. Getting a 4 or 5 year degree requires a certain amount of maturity and discipline that are important factors in being a successful leader. Depending on the university and person, they may learn valuable knowledge and skills in working with people, managing time and resources, working under pressure, test taking, critical thinking, public speaking, and professional writing; sometimes a foreign language. In a few schools and curricula they may actually gain an understanding of US History, world history, and the US Constitution. All contribute to the potential for the new lieutenant or ensign to develop into a good leader. ROTC and OCS provide the knowledge and skills necessary to start the process of becoming a good military officer.
Should the Services provide a pathway for enlisted personnel to become officers. Certainly they should and do. All the Services offer programs for enlisted personnel to attend university, get their degree, and complete either ROTC or OCS. Could an outstanding and highly experienced NCO skip the degree part. I say, yes. I believe 8 years of experience with advancement to E-6 could be considered equivalent to a bachelors degree. The NCO could complete OCS and compete successfully with his more educated peers. However, the pressure would be there to complete the degree to compete for promotion beyond Captain, I believe.
Back to the subject of officers requiring a bachelors degree. Getting a 4 or 5 year degree requires a certain amount of maturity and discipline that are important factors in being a successful leader. Depending on the university and person, they may learn valuable knowledge and skills in working with people, managing time and resources, working under pressure, test taking, critical thinking, public speaking, and professional writing; sometimes a foreign language. In a few schools and curricula they may actually gain an understanding of US History, world history, and the US Constitution. All contribute to the potential for the new lieutenant or ensign to develop into a good leader. ROTC and OCS provide the knowledge and skills necessary to start the process of becoming a good military officer.
Should the Services provide a pathway for enlisted personnel to become officers. Certainly they should and do. All the Services offer programs for enlisted personnel to attend university, get their degree, and complete either ROTC or OCS. Could an outstanding and highly experienced NCO skip the degree part. I say, yes. I believe 8 years of experience with advancement to E-6 could be considered equivalent to a bachelors degree. The NCO could complete OCS and compete successfully with his more educated peers. However, the pressure would be there to complete the degree to compete for promotion beyond Captain, I believe.
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Does the job of being an officer really require a degree, probably not. Does obtaining a degree change you and provide experiences you would not receive otherwise, yes. We have a system developed that has done really well and it should stay that way. Does anyone that asks this question believe someone off the street with a degree should become an NCO? Absolutely not, good NCOs come up the ranks learning policy and gaining experience as a service member, something in place that cannot be replicated in college. What I learned in college was not just from the classes I took but the experience of turning assignments in on time, having a life at clubs till 0200, and then realizing clinicals at 0600 hungover is not fun nor wise, learning that disagreements with instructors and preceptors can lead to failures because people in power can find a way to fail you that is objective and not discrimination if they want; a college degree is so much more than just signing up for classes. You learn what in a 1500 page book is going to turn into a 200 question final, what writing in APA is about, and trying to leave class at 1500 and make it across town for work at 1530 does not work out. These are different challenges that what our NCOs experience and while I would never agree that a college experience would qualify a person to be an NCO I can also never agree that no degree experience will make an NCO a good officer. What folks here need to understand is we have a system set-up that has been largely successful for generations and aside from officer shortages during war, we should keep this as it is.
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SGT Suraj Dave That is a very good question, which could answer with "well it has always been that way." First, what is the purpose of a college degree? What do you really get from undergraduate education? Back in the day, the current paradigm made sense. Today, things are different with regards to college. But, you still need to come to grips with what an undergraduate college education really provides. I would also offer, while by no means perfect, our military works very as currently configured with regards to enlisted troopers, NCOs, and Officers.
This has been talked about on RP before and in the news. I think they need have at least bachelors degree, but I also agree there are exceptions to every rule. Is "just fine" what you are looking for?
I went to OCS as an E5 with 88 college credits. So, this is not a new issue.
I think case by case works best.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/11/do-military-officers-really-need-college-degrees-this-marine-vet-says-no/
This has been talked about on RP before and in the news. I think they need have at least bachelors degree, but I also agree there are exceptions to every rule. Is "just fine" what you are looking for?
I went to OCS as an E5 with 88 college credits. So, this is not a new issue.
I think case by case works best.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/11/do-military-officers-really-need-college-degrees-this-marine-vet-says-no/
Do Military Officers Really Need College Degrees? This Marine Vet Says No
Do military officers need college degrees? An op-ed in The Wall Street Journal Monday argued that because colleges are continually watered down by low-quality students, a degreeisno longer suffici
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No, I do not believe that you must have a degree to be an officer, however I do believe it makes it easier to be accepted into officer programs and by your peers in the Navy. When I first thought about Commissioning programs in the Navy, I was told that the reason officer had to have a degree was to show that you could complete something. I now feel that if a Sailor (or member of another service) finishes his/her first enlistment with honor, they have shown the same thing. Senior Petty Officers (or equivalent) make excellent Warrant Officers and Limited Duty Officers and can also go on to serve in the Unrestricted Line.
Leaders are sometimes trained through exposure to other great leaders, not on college campuses, even in the Service Academies. Some of us kid the "Ring Knockers" when we meet them, but their education covers so much more than the typical Civilian University or College; these are trained leaders of our Navy, once they have the newness knocked off them in the FLEET. I have met some very fine Academy Graduates who served with distinction from much earlier in their careers than typical college OCS grads.
It all comes down to leadership, few are born leaders. Training can make many good leaders. A combination of training and intuition makes great leaders and that intuition comes from learning. That learning takes place in the Classroom, in the Fleet, and as an understudy to other leaders. The primary job of a good Chief/NCO is training JOs to become...
Leaders are sometimes trained through exposure to other great leaders, not on college campuses, even in the Service Academies. Some of us kid the "Ring Knockers" when we meet them, but their education covers so much more than the typical Civilian University or College; these are trained leaders of our Navy, once they have the newness knocked off them in the FLEET. I have met some very fine Academy Graduates who served with distinction from much earlier in their careers than typical college OCS grads.
It all comes down to leadership, few are born leaders. Training can make many good leaders. A combination of training and intuition makes great leaders and that intuition comes from learning. That learning takes place in the Classroom, in the Fleet, and as an understudy to other leaders. The primary job of a good Chief/NCO is training JOs to become...
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MAJ Byron Oyler
Folks ask this question of officers, I like to ask should a bachelors degree allow you to come in as an E7? My answer is hell no, I believe the way we train our senior enlisted works pretty well as does how what we expect of officers. If someone came up to me an offered to make me a Chief in the Navy, I would be embarrassed as I have not earned that title and feel insulted for the Chiefs corps that someone would think I am worthy. I rely too much on folks like you Chief to keep the ship straight and the same should be for the officers.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I agree wholeheartedly that to go into the Unrestricted Line you do need a BA/BS as a minimum MAJ Byron Oyler. However, the LDO and WO programs provide paths for enlisted Sailors to become officers without one. I would think very little of an officer who did not have at least a Bachelors Degree if s/he was in the Line.
There is a program, I don't know the current status, in which it was proposed that "technical experts" would be allowed to enter the NAVY as CPO and up to CAPTAIN based on their "technical expertise." Needless to say I agree with you that NO Chief should ever be admitted into the Navy based on knowledge alone.
There is a program, I don't know the current status, in which it was proposed that "technical experts" would be allowed to enter the NAVY as CPO and up to CAPTAIN based on their "technical expertise." Needless to say I agree with you that NO Chief should ever be admitted into the Navy based on knowledge alone.
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No hunting for Pokémon go like my LT does doesn't require a degree, I have a doctorate and don't do that
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Great answer LTC. MacKay! I found out later that college is actually easier than high school. As stated, unless you’re in a real professional degree program like my wife. BSEE, MSEE. Undergrad is great but a lot of cheating on exams takes place. But overall the LTC. Is correct. You have to start somewhere.
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Probably 90% of what I did in the military or civilian career after the military had nothing to do with my degree. The requirement for a degree simply separates out those who have the ability to meet the requirements of achieving a goal. Having the fortitude necessary to obtain a degree displays a skill set that is extremely beneficial towards success in the military. Not everyone has this, as evidenced by the number of individuals who don't attend college or simply drop out without obtaining a degree. Having a degree is simply a screening factor to identify individuals with the traits to most likely succeed in the military.
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Consider it a roadblock to the uninitiated or a rite of passage. Does memo writing require experience writing and researching reports? Maybe not. Can an E2 with a crayon make a layout? Maybe. Can anyone operate outside their comfort zone? Sure. (NCOs & OCS) Not all NCOs can hack it. Not even close, and maybe not you. The biggest thing that changes is the individual accountability and loss of anonymity. Get used to competing with your peers in a different rating system. There are no more warnings, either. Strike one and done. E7 and above are visible at a higher level to command. The streets are littered with the bodies of wannabe 1LTs who never made it past their commissioning source. Some of being a 2lt is real easy, some of it is a regrettable bureaucratic meat grinder that most people cannot stomach. One last thing- lose the macho NCO ego at the door or they will eat your lunch.
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In my opinion, I think its based on the leader needing to be (or perceived as) the smartest person in the element. Clearly if a person can become an Officer, while holding only a B.A. in Underwater Basket Weaving, it's not about the technical skills they learned from the degree program, aside from General Education topics; although the degree program does get more focus in certain fields like medicine. I think it has part to do with the perception of intelligence, and another part to do with the prestige placed around the holding of a degree, even in civilian life. I don't believe this is the perspective of individual officers, but maybe the mindset of those who created the criteria for Officer eligibility way back.
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way bashing the effort of obtaining a degree, just trying to see it from a reasonable perspective where we don't truly believe that a degree magically makes someone intelligent or capable of leading Soldiers in battle; just as the memorization and reciting of the NCO Creed doesn't magically make a Soldier a great NCO/leader. Now on the other side of that, there can only be so many Officers, so it makes sense to create criteria that vastly narrows down potential applicants based on desired qualities, rather than have the entire force constantly trying to apply. I guess education is a good basis to start from, at least for the reading/writing/math.
More and more enlisted folk are obtaining degrees, which then requires Officers to need to continue going higher as well. Just like its probably not good for a subordinate employee to be paid more than their boss, it probably wouldn't look good for subordinates to be more educated than their bosses either. That's not even taking into account that the military is a career field, where expectations for promotion and retention are driven by competition.
Just my opinion though.
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way bashing the effort of obtaining a degree, just trying to see it from a reasonable perspective where we don't truly believe that a degree magically makes someone intelligent or capable of leading Soldiers in battle; just as the memorization and reciting of the NCO Creed doesn't magically make a Soldier a great NCO/leader. Now on the other side of that, there can only be so many Officers, so it makes sense to create criteria that vastly narrows down potential applicants based on desired qualities, rather than have the entire force constantly trying to apply. I guess education is a good basis to start from, at least for the reading/writing/math.
More and more enlisted folk are obtaining degrees, which then requires Officers to need to continue going higher as well. Just like its probably not good for a subordinate employee to be paid more than their boss, it probably wouldn't look good for subordinates to be more educated than their bosses either. That's not even taking into account that the military is a career field, where expectations for promotion and retention are driven by competition.
Just my opinion though.
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Lt Col Jim Coe
A few points to consider. In civilian life the subject of the degree is important only in technical and professional work for which the academic education is a prerequisite. If you want to be a licensed doctor, engineer, accountant, etc., then you must have the education. Sometimes the Services can be picky about the degree their officer recruits hold. Depending on the availability of applilcants for officer positions, they may only take candidates with science, technology, math, or engineering degrees. Other times, my degree in political science and history was just fine. Where the degree is from is almost always unimportant. As long as the university or college is accredited, then the degree is considered valid. The degree isn't magic by any means. It's an entry key into many professions and industries. What you do with the opportunity is what makes a career.
As a civilian manager, I had several employees who had degrees that were different or "higher" than mine. I had an excellent employee who held two PhDs. He was a great guy, a deep thinker, and a reasonably good manager. He had done the leadership thing (made O-6 before retirement), but just wanted to do his civilian job and not be in charge. One of my very favorite employees was a retired AF E-9 weather person. He didn't have a bachelors degree, but he did have a wealth of experience and leadership capability. He liked technology and educated himself on all manner of IT and audiovisual stuff. He loved being the go-to guy on the team for the practical IT and AV requirements. We happily accommodated both.
As a civilian manager, I had several employees who had degrees that were different or "higher" than mine. I had an excellent employee who held two PhDs. He was a great guy, a deep thinker, and a reasonably good manager. He had done the leadership thing (made O-6 before retirement), but just wanted to do his civilian job and not be in charge. One of my very favorite employees was a retired AF E-9 weather person. He didn't have a bachelors degree, but he did have a wealth of experience and leadership capability. He liked technology and educated himself on all manner of IT and audiovisual stuff. He loved being the go-to guy on the team for the practical IT and AV requirements. We happily accommodated both.
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