Posted on Aug 22, 2014
Feelings on displaying the Confederate flag on your POV or person while on a military installation?
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Recently, I had a long and heated discussion with a fellow veteran about this issue. I don't know for sure whether a branch-specific reg or a DoD-wide reg exists that prohibits/allows personnel on a military installation to display the Confederate flag on their personal vehicle or on their person (e.g. a belt buckle). Maybe this is a base-specific policy and left to the judgment of the installation commander. Display of the Confederate flag is a divisive issue and people often feel really strongly one way or the other. But today, it is still a relevant topic and touches on other military leadership/discipline areas, including the actions of one member deeply offending another member -- regardless of whether said action is legal/authorized. That can create huge problems in a military unit, and this happened in a unit I personally served in. So, below are my questions for the RallyPoint community about this issue.
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Regulation
Policy
Respect
Confederate Flag
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 325
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I think people are offended for the wrong reasons.
You should be offended by our countries education system. Offended by people actively telling others to not vaccinate their children.
This is a non issue. People making a mountain out of a mole hill.
If you're offended by this, then I say, 'so what. Who gives a fuck. Grow thicker skin.'
You should be offended by our countries education system. Offended by people actively telling others to not vaccinate their children.
This is a non issue. People making a mountain out of a mole hill.
If you're offended by this, then I say, 'so what. Who gives a fuck. Grow thicker skin.'
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As I have seen the flag used a symbol that many people raise issue with this particular flag of the Confederacy. To the point historically when they use this flag in such a way they are using not the Flag of the Confederate States of America, but they are using a symbol use by the Confederate Army only to help ensure to communicate in the heat and fog of battle that Southern Regiments could be identified due to the fact the Confederate Flag was 3 bars with blue patch with stars in a circle, one star for each star. Much like the flag of the Revolutionary war, but in the early battles this caused confusion with southern troops firing upon their own. So the more well known Battle Flag came about. My attitude about it is w
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
Is why let it cause you to hate or anything. It is historical artifact that some honor, due to family heritage. Much like many of us who can trace our roots back to 1812 and 1775 do today, as was those that serve on the Union side. The Confederate loses during those 5 years can't be ignored today, and should not have been on the past. We were all Americans, as we are today.
It's a shame that it took until this war to abolish Slavery in the U.S. This War didn't start out to free the slaves to begin with, it was about individual state rights, and other economical issue the Southern States had at the time. During the war, Lincoln was oppose of freeing the slaves at the start, but as the war continued. To deprive one enemy of it resources, President Lincoln then free them. So how this flag became a symbolic for the suppression of group of people is beyond anything other than fear and hatred instilled by people who refuse to accept they had lost the war. A change of live was upon America, and sadly it women would get far more Rights, before all Americans were equal in eyes of the law, throughout the land.
So Specialist Jones wants to wear shirt displaying the Confederate Battle Flag so be it. If Captain Hellen want a plate as a Confederate Battle Flag, so be it. When Sergeant First C lass Grant a tart handing out cards and literature for a racist group meeting, well that has no place on the military, period.
It's a shame that it took until this war to abolish Slavery in the U.S. This War didn't start out to free the slaves to begin with, it was about individual state rights, and other economical issue the Southern States had at the time. During the war, Lincoln was oppose of freeing the slaves at the start, but as the war continued. To deprive one enemy of it resources, President Lincoln then free them. So how this flag became a symbolic for the suppression of group of people is beyond anything other than fear and hatred instilled by people who refuse to accept they had lost the war. A change of live was upon America, and sadly it women would get far more Rights, before all Americans were equal in eyes of the law, throughout the land.
So Specialist Jones wants to wear shirt displaying the Confederate Battle Flag so be it. If Captain Hellen want a plate as a Confederate Battle Flag, so be it. When Sergeant First C lass Grant a tart handing out cards and literature for a racist group meeting, well that has no place on the military, period.
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The Brazilian Town Where the American Confederacy Lives On | VICE | United States
The Confederados are one of the last remaining enclaves of the children of the unreconstructed South.
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The flag is to me like the "Allah Huwa Akbar" shout. It means one thing to devout muslims but to me it sez "Take cover, lock and load etc" The CSA flag has multiple interpretations. One's race and region likely serve as good predictors of your opinion on it.
In all likelihood few KKK types are openly running around advertising bigotry. Though I don't have any flag decal on any POV I have for years been involved with SCV. Sons of Confederate Veterans is not threat to anyone. No political agenda beyond their own self-described commitment to "Historical accuracy" as it pertains to "heritage violations"
And yet thru neglect and indifference the CSA battle flag increasingly has been commandeered by Klanners and other kooks, despite the best efforts of SCV to deny the flag's use to advance any modern 20th or 21st century political/racist agenda.
White good old boys are loyal to the south. That doesnt mean they celebrate George Wallace or Lester Maddux or Orval Faubus or (insert segregationist name here). For most folks I suspect the CSA flag is a point of "ethnic pride" not unlike the way Puerto Rican troops (even those born here in CONUS with zero connection to the island anymore) adorn their POVs with the flag of their beloved Commonwealth. Remember if the flag has blue stripes and a star on a RED field you may or may not be facing an ally!!
If you want to venerate the bravery of an ancestor (which is really what most old SCV folks want most to do) use the CSA "national flag": it is 7 stars in a circle on a blue field. Then to the right of the star circle is a broad red/white/red triple stripes.
In all likelihood few KKK types are openly running around advertising bigotry. Though I don't have any flag decal on any POV I have for years been involved with SCV. Sons of Confederate Veterans is not threat to anyone. No political agenda beyond their own self-described commitment to "Historical accuracy" as it pertains to "heritage violations"
And yet thru neglect and indifference the CSA battle flag increasingly has been commandeered by Klanners and other kooks, despite the best efforts of SCV to deny the flag's use to advance any modern 20th or 21st century political/racist agenda.
White good old boys are loyal to the south. That doesnt mean they celebrate George Wallace or Lester Maddux or Orval Faubus or (insert segregationist name here). For most folks I suspect the CSA flag is a point of "ethnic pride" not unlike the way Puerto Rican troops (even those born here in CONUS with zero connection to the island anymore) adorn their POVs with the flag of their beloved Commonwealth. Remember if the flag has blue stripes and a star on a RED field you may or may not be facing an ally!!
If you want to venerate the bravery of an ancestor (which is really what most old SCV folks want most to do) use the CSA "national flag": it is 7 stars in a circle on a blue field. Then to the right of the star circle is a broad red/white/red triple stripes.
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MAJ (Join to see)
As it says in the Bible if something causes a brother to stumble it is best to get rid of it. Of course, there is also an opp to educate the brother whose offense might not be truly justified. In Tx one of the biggest defenders of CSA historic heritage is in fact an African American man (somewhat of a kook to many) who wears a grey confederate uniform.
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My personal belief is that it is unappropriated. Regardless of your personal beliefs on the purpose and ramifications of the Civil War, and what the symbol means to you, the fact of the matter is it is the flag of a belligerent organization which violated the US Constitution. It was an enemy of which the United States Army fought it's bloodiest war. I do not believe it appropriate for US military members to take up the symbol of an enemy of which no peace was ever attained. I would expect US military not to fly the flag of North Korea, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, or the Saddam Regime Iraqi flag.
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MAJ (Join to see)
The CSA men felt it was the Unon which violated the constitution. Robert E. Lee openly despised slavery as what it was "a moral and political evil" and yet Lee also famously said "a Federal union of states which requires rifles and bayonets to hold it together can never hold any affections from me". That to me says a great deal. Lincoln to his eternal credit was willing to "by any means necessary" keep the Union together. Had the nation split apart we would likely had a heavily patroled border for the 19th and most of the 20th century. Moreover as Harry Turtledove vividly imagined it, CSA and USA would have likely been drawn into WW1 or WW2 on oppposite sides.
Like Lee, most of the CSA officer corps were Westpoint educate men but their allegiance to state above national govt though we may fault it in 21st century was entirely understood. Prior to CW folks said the United States "are" [not is] and one's primary loyalty was to New Hampshire or Massachusetts or Alabama. The CW was necessary to modernize our nation and truly bind us together as one and not just different tribes and factions as we see in premodern nations around the globe to this very day.
Like Lee, most of the CSA officer corps were Westpoint educate men but their allegiance to state above national govt though we may fault it in 21st century was entirely understood. Prior to CW folks said the United States "are" [not is] and one's primary loyalty was to New Hampshire or Massachusetts or Alabama. The CW was necessary to modernize our nation and truly bind us together as one and not just different tribes and factions as we see in premodern nations around the globe to this very day.
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SPC Christopher Morehouse
They waited until after Lincolns election to break away. They did not want to honor the election, or constitutional process for changing laws, and so they blatantly violated them by saying in no uncertain terms "The US Constitution no longer applies here. Federal Law no longer applies here. Go Screw yourself".
As much as those confederate officers who were west point graduates might have been good leaders, they were also all traitors. They Swore this Oath: ""I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."
There is no grey area there. in 1982 the Oath was changed for officers to include affirmation that they have never taken up arms against the US, or supported actions against the Constitution.
Lee might have felt that the Union wasn't worth preserving if it had to be done by force of Arms, but that's a flawed logic at best and a delusional justification for his loyalty to Virginia over the Union at worst. It was a flawed justification for breaking his oath because powers that be in the South were frustrated with their diminishing influence to keep the status quo.
As much as those confederate officers who were west point graduates might have been good leaders, they were also all traitors. They Swore this Oath: ""I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."
There is no grey area there. in 1982 the Oath was changed for officers to include affirmation that they have never taken up arms against the US, or supported actions against the Constitution.
Lee might have felt that the Union wasn't worth preserving if it had to be done by force of Arms, but that's a flawed logic at best and a delusional justification for his loyalty to Virginia over the Union at worst. It was a flawed justification for breaking his oath because powers that be in the South were frustrated with their diminishing influence to keep the status quo.
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A great forum. FREEDOM of expression is one of the things we fight for as active, reserve and national guardsmen.
Shaking someone's hand with your left hand is a symbol of disrespect... But it happens and no one loses sleep over it.
To most here....do the research on the flag in question. When one builds a case on "notions" it makes you look silly.
The bottom line is very blurry here..and permit me to explain. IF this flag is a symbol of racism...WHY are there large groups of Blacks hanging around each other on post in public? Same thing can be said about whites, Latinos, Asians and the whole lot of folks. ARE WE NOT all GREEN?
That action in itself is a symbol of racism...I hear the whole flurry of excuses...."white folks don't understand", "black folks are don't like hanging around with us"....blah blah blah....We are ALL American...we speak English....so what's the deal?
If you as an individual are too self inverted to take the time....AS A LEADER...to acknowledge, ask and get to know one another....then that in itself is a ignorant view of expression and what the term actually means.
The flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is similar to someone having a close feeling about a football team...or basketball team. Why do people wear sports jerseys on post? SAME REASON...different rationale. It is a symbol that defines an individual.
I can call Cowboys fans homos....or Lakers fans knuckledraggers....its the same logic....it is a symbol of pride to you...the individual. You never played on the team...you aren't an NFL or NBA player....but you still say " we had a bad season....bad game...we won...etc."
Would you like to be judged as a coward, a traitor, a racist, or just plain ignorant for being a fan of those faggety assed sports?
If that struck a chord in you...(and the above is just being used as an example)...just think about that when you see others having pride in something different than you. It doesn't make it wrong...or gives you the right to pass judgment... It just means that someone has pride in something that has value to them.
Shaking someone's hand with your left hand is a symbol of disrespect... But it happens and no one loses sleep over it.
To most here....do the research on the flag in question. When one builds a case on "notions" it makes you look silly.
The bottom line is very blurry here..and permit me to explain. IF this flag is a symbol of racism...WHY are there large groups of Blacks hanging around each other on post in public? Same thing can be said about whites, Latinos, Asians and the whole lot of folks. ARE WE NOT all GREEN?
That action in itself is a symbol of racism...I hear the whole flurry of excuses...."white folks don't understand", "black folks are don't like hanging around with us"....blah blah blah....We are ALL American...we speak English....so what's the deal?
If you as an individual are too self inverted to take the time....AS A LEADER...to acknowledge, ask and get to know one another....then that in itself is a ignorant view of expression and what the term actually means.
The flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is similar to someone having a close feeling about a football team...or basketball team. Why do people wear sports jerseys on post? SAME REASON...different rationale. It is a symbol that defines an individual.
I can call Cowboys fans homos....or Lakers fans knuckledraggers....its the same logic....it is a symbol of pride to you...the individual. You never played on the team...you aren't an NFL or NBA player....but you still say " we had a bad season....bad game...we won...etc."
Would you like to be judged as a coward, a traitor, a racist, or just plain ignorant for being a fan of those faggety assed sports?
If that struck a chord in you...(and the above is just being used as an example)...just think about that when you see others having pride in something different than you. It doesn't make it wrong...or gives you the right to pass judgment... It just means that someone has pride in something that has value to them.
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I know that I may ruffle some feathers here, however, personally there should be only one flag displayed on a U.S. Military base! Old Glory! That being said, some people feel that the Confederate flag is something honorable to be displayed, I beg to differ. The folks fighting for what they believe in is honorable, but, people attempting to over throw a standing are known as insurgents, definition is as follows: "Insurgent" a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority, especially a person who engages in armed resistance to a government or to the execution of its laws; rebel. Its very offensive and has no place to be displayed on a military other than inside someones' domicile.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Again, there were legal scholars in the south who understood their duty to the constitution of their state as requiring secession. We have the hindsight of the 21st century which legal scholars like Judah P. Benjamin etc did not. Secession may have been constitutional and legal but they were blind to the immorality of chattel slavery. And if you are legally and constitutionally correct but morally wrong and fail to recognize that fact then that to me is the tragedy of our era's legal abortion and that era's legal slavery. The arguments made to defend both are eerily parallel and similar.
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How would any of you react to say ...winning a clone or an actual Dukes of Hazard General Lee? would you keep the flag or get rid of it and down value the vehicle????I my self dont have a stand one way or the other, if a soldier is awesome in what they do and a hard charger always in the thick of things would it really matter what he drives or has on his vehicle or belt buckle??? If the person was a total reject and their name was amended into the UCMJ then why is that person still a soldier????
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After reading many comments on the subject at hand what I find more interesting is that patriotism often blinds people to the truth-often plain truth that is readily available. There's a lot of things that we were all taught in school that's just not true under the light of day. Examples are: The Mississippi is the longest river in the United States (but it's not); The cheetah is the fastest land animal (but it's not); bad weather sank the Spanish Armada (but the ship and port logs all around of all the British ships at sea and in port had reported good weather ten days before and after that alleged event); however, I could continue and burst some of your ignorant patriotic or scientific beliefs but I won't. An exception I will make will be disregarded by 90% of the readers. No northern state legislature declared nor enforced the abolition of slavery but several southern states did in the 1850s. All ignorant people believe whatever they are told and this case if you just disregard my words without further research then you are nothing more than an ignorant hayseed and ten times worse than any self-proclaimed redneck; additionally, you believe that 2 plus 2 equals 7 in this analogy. Did it ever occur to any of you that are currently disregarding my comments that it's rather strange that the slave railroad was operated in northern states? Why? I would answer it for you but that would spoil your soon to be self discovery and your liberation from lies that divide and destabilize educated patriotism. But I digress, most of you won't read my comments down this far because you are truly bigoted and permanently enslaved in your ignorance. Truly, ignorance is bliss. If you live near or visit Fort Hood, then go to the last lobby outside of the NCOA classrooms and look at the miniature paintings of the southern armies. Or don't.
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Kinda turning the table a bit here...but could someone please explain to me why a vehicle is dubbed a POV when its not??? when I was stationed in Germany I was a Neo warden and it was our job to ensure that we told all soldiers who had said POV to keep them fully tanked at all times in case we had to evacuate.The vehicles would be used to transport personnel as needed and then be disposed of as needed. Also while stationed in Germany I was told countless times that its not a right to own said POV but a privilege and if the commander didnt want a specific soldier to have one they couldnt. Also I was told that a vehicle that has Government plates or a military sticker in the windshield is government property. We had a soldier who was late for roll out, the company area was down hill a good half mile from the motor pool, so he threw all his gear into his trunk to include his weapon.When he got to the motor pool someone saw him pulling all this "sensitive Item gear " from his POV, the next thing he knew he was receiving a field grade for this, but it was dropped because the argument was brought up that a POV isnt in fact a POV but belongs to the Government. Clarification anyone ??? Ohh and by the way country boys will be country boys will be country boys....just saying....
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