Posted on Dec 5, 2015
LTC Jason Strickland
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Take the time to read this short article and let the rest of our RallyPoint community know your thoughts on religious expression in our armed forces. The author opines that US Air Force Academy players praying in the end zone before a football game is taboo - and reflects a much larger problem of religious expression in the military. While cadets don't necessarily reflect the military establishment as a whole, this does stimulate an excellent conversation. Do you agree? If you're the supervisor of a unit, how would you respond? Ultimately, is this an authorized activity under UCMJ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html
Edited >1 y ago
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MAJ Hugh Blanchard
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If this is a voluntary activity, I don't see the problem. The U.S. was founded by people who did not want to be forced into a particular state-sponsored religion, e.g., the Church of England. They did not come to America to prohibit ANY public expression of religious belief, they came here so they would not have to adopt a religious faith imposed on them by a dictatorial government. The notion that there should be a prohibition of religious expression in public is nonsense. If you are offended by prayer, then don't watch..you don't have the right to ban others from expressing their beliefs.
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LTC Jason Strickland
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LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
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Bingo. Freedom OF Religion is not the same as Freedom FROM Religion.
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
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LTC Paul Labrador - Precisely! Too bad that the legal eagles don't use that to counter those that like to revise what the Constitution actually says on many issues.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
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Edited >1 y ago
I am a Christian, and I don't plan to walk on egg shells about that. I read my bible at work, at lunch, in the morning or anytime I have down time. I can handle others doing the same. Why are folks becoming so upset when they see Christians expressing their faith? Is it intolerance? Is it bigotry? Is it political correctness gone too far? I refuse to get one the same level as others who complain but what won't do is answer to someone's PC needs if it discriminate against me as a Christian.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
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SSG (ret) William Martin, would you have a problem with a Muslim co-worker doing the same? Just curious.
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CDR William Kempner
CDR William Kempner
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SSG, I have seen lots of people of different faiths doing that! I DON'T have a problem with Muslims doing that-except if it is disruptive-Have seen that. Most Christians and Jews do their praying quietly or in small groups during lunch/breaks. They aren't hurting anybody.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
SSG (ret) William Martin
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Capt Gregory Prickett - Why would I have a problem with a Muslim SM doing the same? Granted I have never had a Muslim SM interrupt this training so he can do a regular prayer but it could happen but he or she would be still responsible to know and learn what they needed.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
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SSG (ret) William Martin - I wasn't saying that you would be, I was just curious. Some have a problem with it. Some label it as disruptive. Some, like you, don't worry about it.

Thanks for answering.
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Capt Michael Halpin
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We don't give up our free exercise of religion rights when we enter the military, in fact it is an essential part of fulfilling our duty. The USAF has completely surrendered to the anti-Christians bigots like Mikey Weinstein. When he says jump the USAF Chief of Staff says "How high?" The problem is not religion in the military, it is the anti-Christian bigotry of Mikey Wienstein, ACLU, Freedom from Religion and other such KKK-like groups.
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Capt Michael Halpin
Capt Michael Halpin
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Actually the Supreme Court does not have the authority to change the Constitution, that can only be done thru the amendment process. The Supreme Court claimed that authority for themselves. There is nothing in the constitution giving them that authority. There is nothing in it that restricts free speech, even on government property. The first act of the first congress was a prayer session. If anything the military is obligated to accommodate the free exercise if its members religious belief as much as possible. The country is in the mess it is because the federal govt gave itself authority to do anything it wants so long as all three branches agree, so far without restriction.
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SFC Senior Civil Engineer/Annuitant
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Capt Michael Halpin the truth will always set you free. The PC police have been after any crack for the better part of 50 years now... people are staring to get sick of it.
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SFC Senior Civil Engineer/Annuitant
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Capt Michael Halpin I believe the technical phrase is: "He'll in a hand basket"
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MAJ Hugh Blanchard
MAJ Hugh Blanchard
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When the Army went to the Gulf they distributed camo-cover Bibles. It was delicate since Saudi Arabia would not be happy about anything other than the Quran. But those Bibles were distributed to the force.
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How do you feel about religious (yes, Christian) expression in the military?
MAJ Alvin B.
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Edited >1 y ago
I have mixed feelings. Having read the article I do not fully agree with the author. The fact that a group kneel in prayer does not in itself indicate that is evangelical or fundamentalist. It does happen after virtually every college and pro football game, though many broadcasters do not show it on TV. 

As to devotees of other faiths expressing their thanks in public, it would probably be surprising at first. However, I am not sure it would happen given the differences in the way thanks is expressed, and the differences in belief over free will vice predetermined outcome. 

As to the UCMJ angle, I do not believe so, however I suspect it could be argued it depends. The military is a unique environment and faith has always played a strong role in that environment. Dating back for centuries, if not eons before there was an American military or an Amrcian Nation. 

There has never been a time in the history of the American military tradition that has not Included public displays of faith.
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LTC Jason Strickland
LTC Jason Strickland
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Great comments, MAJ Alvin B.! Thanks for your input.
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CDR William Kempner
CDR William Kempner
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Well said.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
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It does not take a social scientist to figure out that Christianity and Christians are under attack abroad, and in the US.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
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Oh please.

The opposite is true.
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LTC David Brown
LTC David Brown
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I agree,
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SFC Michael Hasbun
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Instead of us mere mortals, let's ask Jesus for his perspective...
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SFC Joseph Weber
SFC Joseph Weber
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I just can't believe there are so many arguments about Jesus, Wiley Coyote, Mohammad, and all these other mythological characters. I wish the Alien Overlords would just show up and settle all this crap.
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MAJ Glenn Bergeron
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
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MAJ Glenn Bergeron - As are a few I presume ;o)
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LTC David Brown
LTC David Brown
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I think Jesus also said something about 2 or more gathered in his name.
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SSG Stephen Arnold
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Allowing the free expression of religion does not equate to endorsement of that religion. Suggesting that it does is disingenuous at best.

Did he seriously compare evangelicals to the Taliban? He lost all credibility at that point.
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LTC Jason Strickland
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MAJ Ken Landgren
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This is not a stab at you, but just imagine a SNL skit where George Washington says lets pray and his Continental Army gets in groups by Jews, Islamic , Christians, Atheists beliefs; but they cant even stomach that. We are now a country of unreasonable adults and various forms of government are at times endorsing this unreasonable behavior of the vocal minority (not race).
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LTC Jason Strickland
LTC Jason Strickland
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Interesting perspective, MAJ Ken Landgren.
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SFC Senior Civil Engineer/Annuitant
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It appeared Freedom of association may be in jeopardy.
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LTC David Brown
LTC David Brown
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One of Washington’s first acts as commander of the Continental Army was to order a day of fasting and prayer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Prayer#History
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Cpl Jeff N.
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If prayer in the armed forces of this country was good enough for George Washington, it is good enough for me. We have a real issue with understanding our history and how we got here and the vision of our founders. Prayer would have never been compulsory as all had the freedom of conscience but for the Air Force Academy to act like this might be an issue demonstrates the lack of historical awareness even in those hallowed halls.
_________________________________________________________________________

The Prayer at Valley Forge is a depiction of one of these moments of intense prayer. It is said that a local British loyalist named Isaac Potts came across Washington praying in the woods one cold, wintry day during that terrible winter of 1777 and 1778. The Potts family owned a local iron forge, to which the name Valley Forge referred, to distinguish it from other forges in the area.

The Pottses were Quakers and loyalists to the British cause. Isaac himself was apparently not connected with the forge at this time, but owned and operated a local grist mill. All the grain that was processed at this grist mill was requisitioned by the Continental Army during the Valley Forge encampment. In addition, General Washington actually stayed in the very home of Isaac Potts during the Valley Forge encampment, requisitioning it as his personal headquarters. Click here to read a personal account of a visit to Valley Forge and the Isaac Potts home from one of Revolutionary War and Beyond's visitors.
There are some conflicting accounts and questions about the accuracy of the story of Isaac Potts, George Washington and the prayer at Valley Forge. The following account is taken from the "Diary and Remembrances" of the Rev. Nathaniel Randolph Snowden, an ordained Presbyterian minister and graduate of Princeton with a degree from Dickinson College, who was born in 1770 and died in 1851. Rev. Snowden stated:
"I knew personally the celebrated Quaker Potts who saw Gen'l Washington alone in the woods at prayer. I got it from himself, myself. Weems mentioned it in his history of Washington, but I got it from the man myself, as follows:
"I was riding with him (Mr. Potts) in Montgomery County, Penn'a near to the Valley Forge, where the army lay during the war of ye Revolution. Mr. Potts was a Senator in our State and a Whig. I told him I was agreeably surprised to find him a friend to his country as the Quakers were mostly Tories. He said, 'It was so and I was a rank Tory once, for I never believed that America c'd proceed against Great Britain whose fleets and armies covered the land and ocean, but something very extraordinary converted me to the Good Faith!" "What was that," I inquired? 'Do you see that woods, and that plain. It was about a quarter of a mile off from the place we were riding, as it happened.' 'There,' said he, 'laid the army of Washington. It was a most distressing time of ye war, and all were for giving up the Ship but that great and good man. In that woods pointing to a close in view, I heard a plaintive sound as, of a man at prayer. I tied my horse to a sapling and went quietly into the woods and to my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis, and the cause of the country, of humanity and of the world.

'Such a prayer I never heard from the lips of man. I left him alone praying.

'I went home and told my wife. I saw a sight and heard today what I never saw or heard before, and just related to her what I had seen and heard and observed. We never thought a man c'd be a soldier and a Christian, but if there is one in the world, it is Washington. She also was astonished. We thought it was the cause of God, and America could prevail.' "He then to me put out his right hand and said 'I turned right about and became a Whig.'"

There are several other accounts of the Prayer at Valley Forge, mostly differing in minor details, but remaining substantially the same. One even exists in the writing of Isaac Potts' own daughter Ruth-Anna, who died in 1811. She relates the story even down to the detail of Potts converting to the American cause after seeing General Washington in prayer.


Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/prayer-at-valley-forge.html#ixzz3tY8ncQnP
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SMSgt Pavements and Construction Equipment (DirtBoyz)
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Capt Gregory Prickett - you really should do better research. According to the Mount Vernon website, "Washington is reported to have had regular private prayer sessions, and personal prayer was a large part of his life. One well-known report stated that Washington's nephew witnessed him doing personal devotions with an open Bible while kneeling, in both the morning and evening."

http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/george-washington-and-religion/
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
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SMSgt (Join to see), you mean the same link that Dr. Tsakiridis points out that Washington may have been a Deist?

You may want to try reading the following:

*David L. Holmes, The Faiths of the Founding Fathers (2006), which goes into detail debunking the kneeling in the woods praying hoax.
*Don Higginbotham, George Washington Reconsidered (2001).
*Gary Scott Smith, Faith and the Presidency From George Washington to George W. Bush (2006).

It is also instructive that the inventory of books at Mount Vernon in 1783 does not list a single bible. The estate of Washington in 1799 does list three bibles, one in Latin, and two which had been gifts and were "like new" in an unused condition.

I would be happy to go over the research with you, if you want, but I'm not basing my opinion on a single line cherry-picked from a website.
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SMSgt Pavements and Construction Equipment (DirtBoyz)
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Capt Gregory Prickett - I just picked from the first website listed on Google, but I am sure I can line up an impressive line of books that support that he did in fact pray. It is all going to depend on the leaning of the author writing the works.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
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SMSgt (Join to see), I agree that we don't know for sure if Washington was Christian or Deist. My point is that I have researched this over the years and I am familiar with the arguments. Weems, who is the first to include the bit on Washington praying at Valley Forge is also the guy who invented the "cannot tell a lie" and "cherry tree" myths. There is evidence to show that the supposed witness was not at Valley Forge (he leased the home to another family) and he was married until well after the fact (1803) , so going home and telling his "wife" about Washington praying in the woods is not likely. It likely didn't happen.

Sgt Richard Buckner, nice list. Are you aware that Washington was never confirmed into the Episcopalian Church? Or that he never took communion, and when the priest mentioned that to him in a sermon about missing communion, Washington simply stopped going to church on the days that communion was to be served? Or that another Episcopalian priest, the Reverend Dr. James Abercrombie, when asked, was quoted as responding "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

There is no definitive determination, Washington was notoriously private about his beliefs. Anyone who claims to know one way or the other as a certainty is nuts--I personally belief that he was a Deist, or possibly a theistic rationalist, but there is no way to know for sure.

BTW, based on your own list and the question on Washington, it appears that the first traditional Christian President was Jackson - 40 years after the nation was formed.
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MCPO Roger Collins
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All our sports events begin with two lead ins, prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. That includes public school events. During my 21 year career, this was never an issue, if you were interested in joining religious activities, no one thought anything about it. (They were not the ones most of us went on liberty with, however) The same applied to those that didn't want to participate, for any reason. As the Philosopher, Rodney King once said, "Can't we just get along?"
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CDR William Kempner
CDR William Kempner
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Wise comment, Master chief.
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