Posted on Mar 17, 2015
How to differentiate personnel's rank during PT? Choice #2 worked amazingly in Hawaii.
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Personally, I think that the different color belts are a much better idea that way you can avoid an unneeded sharp complaint. (some people are petty like that)
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 107
The PT belts are completely out of control as it is (we just need a PT uniform that has reflective material on it to avoid this oh wait we already have that) The answer is we don't need to know rank just maintain professionalism. Who cares if it's a sergeant major or a first lieutenant if you maintain yourself in a professional manner when making a correction there shouldn't be an issue as it is
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SPC Lukas Jones Honestly, a bright yellow uniform seems more safe than running in the dark with a black uniform on...
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How big are your units that you don't know people's ranks?
In in doubt, say Sir or Sgt. There's only 1 officer per Plt, 5 per company, and the old guy is either a 1SG or a SGM.
Or do like we do in the Corps "Hey Marine!"
In in doubt, say Sir or Sgt. There's only 1 officer per Plt, 5 per company, and the old guy is either a 1SG or a SGM.
Or do like we do in the Corps "Hey Marine!"
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ Carl Ballinger It's bigger than Camp Pendleton, but daytime population of Camp Pen (100k) is almost double Ft Hood's listed population of 50k~.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ Carl Ballinger Keep in mind that the USMC only has 3 MEFs, and effectively only has 3 locales. Our overseas population is minimal, as is our Quantico (about 5k). When you add in Navy & personnel present for Training, Camp Pendleton has A LOT of people on it. The official website lists us at 42k Military personnel, not including civilians workers, or dependents (total daily population 100k).
Camp Pen would be directly comparable.
Camp Pen would be directly comparable.
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When I was a young troop (PFC) in Fort Hood, the III Corp CSM (CSM Neil Ciotola, now retired) used to run around with SGT Ciotola on his reflective vest, and when correcting people, most of them would brush him off because he was just an E-5. This, of course, would be horrible for that individual.
It is all about situational awareness, knowing who you are speaking to, and using tact when applicable. If somebody calls you out, know what is going on. If you as a leader are planning on putting a Soldier in charge of PT, make sure they a) have a plan, and b) can brief the plan to a higher ranking person when necessary.
Having rank on a reflective belt is, in my opinion, stupid. PT time is designated for PT time and you should be so busy doing so that saluting an officer is the last thing on your to-do list. Also, is a E-7 or above is using that time to go around spot-checking to ensure everyone is doing the right thing:
a) you should know that individual because that means they are in your unit/Chain of Command.
b) they are cussing you out because you aren't doing the right thing and a "parade rest" is implied at that point in time.
c) a simple introduction would take 10 seconds tops and shouldn't insult them.
OR
d) (with all due respect) they should be doing PT at that time, too. At that juncture, they are interrupting your session for no real reason.
Customs and Courtesies are a time-honored tradition, but it does have it's time and place. Whilst conducting unit level Physical Training, in my opinion, is not one of them because it takes away from what time you have to exercise. If I am doing circuit training with my Soldiers, and my CSM/1SG/Commander (at any level) wants to join, I will not stop what I am doing, but still give them their respective greeting, and invite them to join. If somebody I do not recognize is just gawking for no reason, I will simply ask them if I may help them.
It all comes down to TACT. Rank demands respect, yes, but that doesn't mean treat everyone who doesn't outrank you like shit just because.
It is all about situational awareness, knowing who you are speaking to, and using tact when applicable. If somebody calls you out, know what is going on. If you as a leader are planning on putting a Soldier in charge of PT, make sure they a) have a plan, and b) can brief the plan to a higher ranking person when necessary.
Having rank on a reflective belt is, in my opinion, stupid. PT time is designated for PT time and you should be so busy doing so that saluting an officer is the last thing on your to-do list. Also, is a E-7 or above is using that time to go around spot-checking to ensure everyone is doing the right thing:
a) you should know that individual because that means they are in your unit/Chain of Command.
b) they are cussing you out because you aren't doing the right thing and a "parade rest" is implied at that point in time.
c) a simple introduction would take 10 seconds tops and shouldn't insult them.
OR
d) (with all due respect) they should be doing PT at that time, too. At that juncture, they are interrupting your session for no real reason.
Customs and Courtesies are a time-honored tradition, but it does have it's time and place. Whilst conducting unit level Physical Training, in my opinion, is not one of them because it takes away from what time you have to exercise. If I am doing circuit training with my Soldiers, and my CSM/1SG/Commander (at any level) wants to join, I will not stop what I am doing, but still give them their respective greeting, and invite them to join. If somebody I do not recognize is just gawking for no reason, I will simply ask them if I may help them.
It all comes down to TACT. Rank demands respect, yes, but that doesn't mean treat everyone who doesn't outrank you like shit just because.
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MAJ (Join to see)
For what it's worth, SFC (Join to see) I agree with your perspective. Rank indicates your level of authority and responsibility, it does not make you right. Standards apply to everyone.
I had a past Commander light up a cigarette near the firing line at a range. When I informed him where the smoking area was he blew me off. While I didn't have the authority to make him put it out, it did not do much for my opinion of the man.
I had a past Commander light up a cigarette near the firing line at a range. When I informed him where the smoking area was he blew me off. While I didn't have the authority to make him put it out, it did not do much for my opinion of the man.
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CSM (Join to see)
MAJ Keith Benoit
I am looking forward to it. I think I extended as much professionalism as anyone else on this thread. I just find it humorous that the same Officer Corps that give the NCO Corps the authority to make corrections and maintain discipline and order, is the same Officer Corps that is basically telling a junior NCO that he has no authority and you don't have to correct a deficiency that he points out.
Seems that we fail to understand that Soldiers look up to their officers. It doesn't matter if you are a commander or not, you are a commissioned officer, you are better than them (that's what they think). Soldiers want to be like you, they want to impress you, the want you to acknowledge that they are alive. When you do not set the example you are telling Soldiers that it is ok not to follow regulations, when you downgrade the authority of a NCO you make that NCO powerless to do exactly what your Corps specifically built us for.
But I digress sir, looking forward to you "hitting" me up offline.
I am looking forward to it. I think I extended as much professionalism as anyone else on this thread. I just find it humorous that the same Officer Corps that give the NCO Corps the authority to make corrections and maintain discipline and order, is the same Officer Corps that is basically telling a junior NCO that he has no authority and you don't have to correct a deficiency that he points out.
Seems that we fail to understand that Soldiers look up to their officers. It doesn't matter if you are a commander or not, you are a commissioned officer, you are better than them (that's what they think). Soldiers want to be like you, they want to impress you, the want you to acknowledge that they are alive. When you do not set the example you are telling Soldiers that it is ok not to follow regulations, when you downgrade the authority of a NCO you make that NCO powerless to do exactly what your Corps specifically built us for.
But I digress sir, looking forward to you "hitting" me up offline.
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SFC (Join to see)
MAJ Keith Benoit, after this post, I am going to graciously bow out of the conversation, as it is obviously getting out of hand and bordering on unprofessional. But, to answer your question, Merriam-Websters dictionary defines integrity as a "firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values." We as the military, whether Army, Navy, Marine Corp, Coast Guard or Air Force, hold ourselves to a higher level of discipline; state law, federal law, UCMJ, regulations and the like.
Hell, the Army's definition of the word Integrity in the Values is "Doing what is right, even when nobody is looking."
Hell, the Army's definition of the word Integrity in the Values is "Doing what is right, even when nobody is looking."
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG R. Aaron Houde, I admire you're professionalism and tact, -you- seem like the type of soldier I look forward to becoming. I'm also thankful that soldiers have NCO's like you to model ourselves after and to model ourselves after. None more professional!
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After a couple decades in the Army, I've come to realize that those who need to know your in charge, seniors and subordinates, know. Those who don't need to know don't care unless you screwed up something. One should ALWAYS treat others respectfully regardless of rank; one of the Army's values, so what difference does it make? I promise you that if you stand back and watch a unit for a few minutes you can figure out who the leaders are. I probably doesn't take long to determine which of those leaders are the commissioned and non-commissioned officers.
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Just reviewed AR 670-1 and DA PAM 670-1. There is no mention of being authorized to wear rank in either the APFU or IPFU. The only authorized insignia with this uniform is the physical fitness badge. I also strongly believe rank should not be worn in the PT uniform as it creates segregation amongst soldiers. It many cases, I feel like this would subject junior soldiers to harassment, and undermine the authority of leaders who are 'under-performing' during PT.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Sir,
This is all I found to that regards "Commanders may authorize wear of black gloves, reflective belts or vests, long underwear, and other items appropriate to the weather conditions and type of activity."
I personally do not see how an activity or weather condition would make it appropriate to authorize the wearing of rank.
This is all I found to that regards "Commanders may authorize wear of black gloves, reflective belts or vests, long underwear, and other items appropriate to the weather conditions and type of activity."
I personally do not see how an activity or weather condition would make it appropriate to authorize the wearing of rank.
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PT belts are made from the crushed hearts of service members who were forced to medically retire.
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I vote, "None of the Above"
I was just talking with my CSM recently about this. At Ft. Jackson, all Cadre wear a reflective vest with our Rank and Name to make sure the IET Soldiers know who is Cadre.
Outside of the IET environment, I don't think we need to identify rank when doing PRT. Obviously, everyone in the unit you are working out with will know who is who, and if you run into someone else outside the unit, there should be no reason to have dialog unless someone is doing something 'wrong.' For those in the Chain of Command or the NCO Support Channel should be known anyway because of the photos posted on the command boards.
When I was a new 2LT, I parked in the parking lot near where my platoon did PT, and as I got out I was being yelled at by a Soldier in PTs. He proceeded to tell me very loudly that I was parking in a CSM slot. I said, OK and moved my vehicle.
Another time, this time a 1LT, my platoon and I had run to a different area and were conducting drills when another individual came running up and started yelling that we could not do PT there. When I asked him why, he told me he was a CSM and that it didn't matter, we just had to leave. I introduced myself respectfully, and told him that we would move elsewhere, but I would like to know why. He said something like, "Sir, this in 'my' area and you need to move" but his tone was different.
Would having rank on changed anything? Probably not, but once we all knew who everyone was, we still communicated and 'fixed' the problem.
I like being anonymous in APFU!
I was just talking with my CSM recently about this. At Ft. Jackson, all Cadre wear a reflective vest with our Rank and Name to make sure the IET Soldiers know who is Cadre.
Outside of the IET environment, I don't think we need to identify rank when doing PRT. Obviously, everyone in the unit you are working out with will know who is who, and if you run into someone else outside the unit, there should be no reason to have dialog unless someone is doing something 'wrong.' For those in the Chain of Command or the NCO Support Channel should be known anyway because of the photos posted on the command boards.
When I was a new 2LT, I parked in the parking lot near where my platoon did PT, and as I got out I was being yelled at by a Soldier in PTs. He proceeded to tell me very loudly that I was parking in a CSM slot. I said, OK and moved my vehicle.
Another time, this time a 1LT, my platoon and I had run to a different area and were conducting drills when another individual came running up and started yelling that we could not do PT there. When I asked him why, he told me he was a CSM and that it didn't matter, we just had to leave. I introduced myself respectfully, and told him that we would move elsewhere, but I would like to know why. He said something like, "Sir, this in 'my' area and you need to move" but his tone was different.
Would having rank on changed anything? Probably not, but once we all knew who everyone was, we still communicated and 'fixed' the problem.
I like being anonymous in APFU!
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Really, you do PT as an organization, if you are on your own who cares...don't let something else distract from PT
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Common Sense and Professionalism coupled with the fact you normally conduct PT as a unit should make the difference in rank only as difficult as your memory.
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