Posted on Sep 26, 2018
SPC Allied Trades Specialist
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I had just arrived at my first duty station when a week after inrpcessing we where sent of to JRTC In fort polk ...we did zero PT the entire time
When we had returned I was told I was taking um first APFT well I failed it and even know the grader marked it as a record my LT told me that he was going to make it a diagnostic because we had just returned and it was my first PT test
Well about a month later I had just gotten of profile for about 2 weeks and was told I was taking another one I failed my run by 11 seconds
I just signed (disagreed) on a counciling for recommendation for chapter ...how can I fight this???
Posted in these groups: P542 APFT
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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You can fight the APFT failure chapter, by passing your APFT consistently.
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SPC Allied Trades Specialist
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Can I request to take an APFT before the chapter paperwork has started?
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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You can always request to take an APFT. Even once your chapter paperwork is started you are still required to take an APFT until you ETS.
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MAJ Contracting Officer
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SPC (Join to see) - They are required to start the paperwork, but you will have some time to improve before you are separated. If you pass you're good to go.
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1SG Operations Sergeant Major
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Were you counseled on a 4856 after failing the first APFT that stated you had up to 90 days to retake an APFT? Were you counseled by the commander on a 4856 that you would be retaking an APFT and you agreed that you were ready to retake before the 90 days expired? If the answer is no to either of those questions, legal should tell commander it was conducted improperly.
Also, signing "I DISAGREE" does not really mean anything. It's like signing for a speeding ticket. You're still getting counseled. Only way that helps if it something needs to be investigated it will raise questions that could help you.
I suggest you get real serious about pt because as soon as legal tells the commander the APFTs were illegitimate you can bet you're doing an APFT.
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CPT Timothy Hernandez
CPT Timothy Hernandez
>1 y
Check the reg again, when I was in you had twice the length of the profile, up to 90 days, to train for a record APFT. So, in this case, he would have had four weeks to train for a record APFT, following the end of his profile.1SG (Join to see)
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1SG Operations Sergeant Major
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CPT Timothy Hernandez Sorry, last unit had a policy letter or something that removed the rehab time, you are correct. Twice the length of profile, not to exceed 90 days. Not a real profile if it's only on the sick call slip though!
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MAJ Raymond Haynes
MAJ Raymond Haynes
>1 y
When at Ft. Polk you said that you did zero PT. Was that organized PT on the training schedule, or you just decided to do zero PT. What about your time off from duty, you could not PT then? I have a hard time with stories where solders claim to have failed the APFT because "my unit didn't PT". Physical fitness is a personal responsibility. The Army makes great effort in organizing PT training times and events but in the end it is up to the individual solder to decide if they are getting enough training to pass the APFT. If the answer is NO then it is there responsibility to augment the organized (or lack of) training with there personal program. The only way to get them off your back about the APFT is to pass the APFT record or not.
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MSG Johnathan Mathes
MSG Johnathan Mathes
>1 y
MAJ Raymond Haynes - agreed sir
just because your deployed doesn't mean you don't stay fit... Physical fitness is a personal responsibility as you said... perhaps less pizza and beer and take your non pt doing ass to the gym and get involved...also Pt in the mornings is not enough .. will never be enough .. if you want a decent score... and a passing one
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1SG Timothy Trewin
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Were you given 90 days from your first failure to retake it? Also were you counseled after failing the first one? If you answer yes to both there is not much you can do as you would have known that you had a record coming up. Also failing a run by 11 seconds or 11 minutes is irrelevant as a fail is a fail.

When you fail your first APFT you are supposed to be counseled by the CDR and you have to take a second record APFT 90 days later unless you and your commander agree to take one sooner. If you fail it then you are to be recommended for chapter separation.
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SPC Allied Trades Specialist
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None of those took place no counciling and no 90 days and I was on profile
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1SG Timothy Trewin
1SG Timothy Trewin
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SPC (Join to see) Were you on a temp profile when you took a record APFT? If so it’s invalid. Now your temp profile should state when your APFT availability date is. If it’s after your 90 mark, a profile can’t be used as an excuse for a PT failure.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
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1SG Timothy Trewin - You can take an APFT on temporary profile if the provider puts in that the soldier can take an alternate event.

He said a month later after he got off profile they had him take another one.
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CPT Timothy Hernandez
CPT Timothy Hernandez
>1 y
You will have an opportunity to seek legal counsel if they initiate chapter proceedings. If the counseling for your APFT was not done correctly legal will inform your commander and they will have to start the process over again.

Be prepared to retake the APFT as soon as the counseling has been done to standard. SPC (Join to see)
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How to fight a chapter for APFT fail?
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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Edited >1 y ago
Just because your LT told you it would be a Diagnostic, that does not make it so as it was (I'm guessing) was not conveyed to the OIC/NCOIC/Grader of the APFT. Also, you should have said so to your Grader prior to you starting your first event. If you did not, then hard lesson learned. Also, per the Regulation, you need to be counseled and notified that you have failed, will be flagged, and have 90 days before you take another Record APFT. You can take one sooner if you feel you are ready, and this should be documented in the Counseling. Taking another Record 30 days post initial failure is bad form.

About your profile. The way the system is now designed, there is no more recovery periods post profile. The time frame your profile covers includes recovery. By design, you are supposed to be ready to take an APFT right after the profile ends. Unless otherwise medically documented.

As for the counseling. You should have been counselled after your initial failure. If you were not, then that is bad form on the NCOs and Commander. You should have also been counselled after your second failure. If that was not done, then bad form on your NCOs and Commander.

On to your Chapter. You will be given a chance to speak to Legal. I HIGHLY encourage you to take that option and state your case. Here is why. There is a serious checklist for Chapters. Every single dot and cross must be met. And, APFT Failure counseling statements must be included. They CANNOT be back-dated. Which means, if your packet is sent up without those forms, it will be rejected by JAG and sent back to start over. If those counseling sessions never took place before the packet was submitted, the Command CANNOT create a counseling form that is back-dated.

As for you disagreeing to the statement, all that means is that you disagreeing with what was talked about in relation to what was written down on the form.
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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SPC (Join to see) - But you better damn well be sure you can pass and smoke that APFT harder than Cheech and Chong.
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SPC Allied Trades Specialist
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MSG (Join to see)
But sgt can they not allow me to take an APFT?
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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SPC (Join to see) - Sure, then can allow it. But the regs state they cant make you take one for 90 days. If you feel you are prepared to pass within those 90 days, state your case and convince them. Then you better put your money where your mouth is.
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
SFC Kenneth Hunnell
>1 y
Just my two cents, failing any event should have been enough counseling. The individual and grader already know the status. The individual should have asked for help in the deficiency. Not out looking for a out of situation. Get the help needed and March on
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CSM Darieus ZaGara
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The two responses I reviews are spot on. Take the time to read the regulations and speak with the next level, PLT Sgt, 1SG etc. get serious about PT, it is an individual responsibility. There is no place I have been that my Soldiers did not find ways to remain ready. Only you can make this happen. If you are going to press the command they are going to test your grit. Thank you for your service.
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SGT Acft Mech/ Crewchief
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First, You have to fail 3 consecutive APFT's for record before they can chapter you out. Second, you have to decide whether or not you want it for record prior to starting the APFT. You can't go back after you failed and change it to diagnostic. You are told this in the reading of the events prior to.
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SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez
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PFC Hansen,
I don't know the extend or the nature of the profile. During my 20 years of service, I was on profile 4 times. The most severed one was my lower back which I still deal with every now and then. One thing I learned from been on profile is this whole madness about counselings, was the APFT on record or it wasn't. So, instead on dealing all that, find a way to stay in shape regardless of the conditions you are/were in. Profile does not mean sit around doing nothing, but depending on the situation of course. And yes, units expect you to take a test and pass it as soon you're off profile. It has happened to me. How about counseling? Did those take place at all?
Again, I don't know how bad your injury is/was, but you have to find a way to work around that to stay in some kind of shape. And even if it was a diagnostic, I would treat that as like it was a record. I know I did, every time.
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SPC Allied Trades Specialist
SPC (Join to see)
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I wasnt counclied for any PT Failure I was tracking they where all diagnostics until today
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MSG Johnathan Mathes
MSG Johnathan Mathes
>1 y
SPC (Join to see) - stop worrying about a damn counseling and get your ass to the gym after hours.... spend less time arguing and more time lifting running doing cardio training.... get your mind right.. your ass will follow
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SGM Bill Frazer
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1. It takes more to chapter you out than 1 APFT. 2. He can counsel you for failing the standard, and his recommendation for a chapter will hold true if you fail a 2nd record AFPT. 3, You said profile- what was your train up time for the profile? Ask your BN PA. Normally it's 1 week for every week on profile. That means you may not have failed the PT test cause you were still in the build up/reconditioning process after the profile. 4. Approach the LT with caution- check with the PA 1st, then get off your 4th POC and get fit so as to pass the next APFT, and things will be good again.
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CPT Physical Therapist
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>1 y
SPC (Join to see) Negative, there is no longer such a thing as a separate recovery period after a profile. With the profile system that had been out for the last couple of years the recovery time is built into the profile and you can be expected to take an APFT as soon as the day after your profile expires.
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1SG Timothy Trewin
1SG Timothy Trewin
>1 y
SPC (Join to see) As 1LT Beggs stated, there is no longer the twice the length of the profile not to exceed 90 days recovery period for profiles. The recovery is built into the profile which is why your profile states APFT availability date. That means any time from that time on you can take a record APFT as long as the other requirements are met (90 days for make up for APFT failure, more than four months from last record APFT).
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
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SGM Bill Frazer - his command is saying he failed two record APFTs - but he didn't get the 90 days, he didn't get counseled. So legal will probably deny the chapter since they have no supporting documentation.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
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SPC (Join to see) - When did this occur? Because with the current profile system there is no more recovery time. The provider has to write in your recovery time into the profile now. So your comment: "yes for a 7 day profile you have up 14 days after the date the profile ends before you can take a record PT test " is wrong. You should educate yourself on the profile system.

Now the fact you weren't counseled is wrong. You didn't get up to 90 days. And if it wasn't clearly identified as a record it's not going to hold up.
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SGT Biomedical Equipment Technician (Bmet)
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I don't know anything about fighting a chapter, but I'd like to ask: what was your profile for? Unless your profile is for absolutely no exercise or sweating (I've seen it before), there is always a way to stay in shape.

Another thing, it's never your unit's responsibility to keep you in shape, it's yours and yours alone.
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