Posted on Jun 27, 2019
MSG Mlc Facilitator
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I was approached by Soldier in my office with the question, “ Are we allowed to used tobacco products inside the building?” I told the no not at all for any reason. He then stated “ Well how come everyone dips inside the motorpool, inside the offices, even the LTC and CSM dip in the building and in meetings in front of everyone?” I was speechless for a moment because I also knew this to be true and the regulation: Army Regulation (AR) 600-63, Army Health Promotion, paragraph 7-3a, 20 SEP 2009, states: "Tobacco use is prohibited in all DA-occupied workplaces except for designated smoking areas, as authorized by Department of Defense Instruction 1010.15. What could I tell him if the leadership doesn’t follow the regulation. So I told him two wrongs don’t make a right and to follow the regulation and make an on the spot correction to whomever violates the regulation. Sounds like good sound advice right? Well the Soldier took it to heart and was spot checking anyone in violation and when he did this to a senior leader, he was told to “check down, not up” and walked away with his dip cup on hand. So seeing that there is a disregard for the regulation the soldier started vaping in the office. When told he could not do it he answered saying “ Command uses tobacco in the building and doesn’t care about the regulation so I won’t either.” What are your takes on this seeing that the regulation is posted on the doors of all DOD buildings and getting this double standard corrected?
Posted in these groups: Professionalism logo ProfessionalismChecklist icon 2 StandardsImages 20 NCOs
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Responses: 23
CSM Richard StCyr
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First, good on the troop for asking a senior NCO about the standard and pointing out a discrepancy that can cause issues with perception and enforcement of standards .

Discretion is the better part of valor sometimes though and if senior leaders are doing stupid crap that impact perceptions, I found engaging them in a public forum for anything that isn't a threat to life and limb often results in the reaction you mentioned. Infractions like you mentioned are better handled with an office call and a private discussion. It does two things, it allows the offender to consider your points in a neutral environment without ruffling egos and provides for discussion either heated or rational. You'll find your success rate on subordinate to senior leader corrections will vastly increase.

Since the troop approached you for guidance and you did the research in my humble opinion you own the correction now. Get on the 1SGs calendar or open door and involve them. Then follow through as needed up through the NCO support channel.

In any case the troop needs to follow the regulation and orders and on the spot corrections regardless of what anyone else is doing, as you pursue the correction and work to make changes in the senior leaders actions.

This is a great example of the indiscipline being like a crack in the windshield analogy. If you let it go it spiders out to all aspects of the unit until the whole thing is broken.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
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Ballsy. Stupid, but ballsy.

Thay Soldier is out of line and needs to be corrected ASAP before he gets hemmed up BAD.

Now... to the real question. Unfortunately, there is not a lot you can do. If the LTC and CSM have already been adressed regarding their double standard, and still choose to persist, then you simply have to enforce what you can.

We had a sensing session where the CSM was dipping at the sensing session, and I asked him pretty much this exact question. I asked him how he expected me to enforce smoking rules when he was dipping, and he basically told me to shut up and do my job.

The only other option is to go up to BDE CSM or BDE CDR for enforcement, but I do not recommend that. There is no situation I can envision in which this can be portrayed to BDE in a "proper" light. Every scenario I see ends up with no change and you in trouble (or at least on the shit list) - at both BN and BDE.
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SPC John Decker
SPC John Decker
>1 y
While I agree with all you have said here, someone has to take that step or unit moral starts to suffer. "If my seniors are breaking the rules, why shouldn't I"? It can only go down-hill from there.
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
>1 y
18abea7a
Moral courage is doing the right thing regardless of the personal consequences. I'd rather have my gravestone say "The Major had brass balls.", than "The Colonel lacked moral courage."
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SFC Interpreter/Translator
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
Maj John Bell - You make a great point that I agree with, except that those who lack moral courage in those regards will likely stay in good lights, getting a gravestone that says, "The Colonel did nothing but great things, never ruffled feathers, and should always be revered." Meanwhile, those subordinates who suffered under them will only be able to grumble in silence and have no way to correct the gravestone to display the Colonel's reputation among the Soldiers they let get hammered over a double-standard they chose not to enforce on their subordinate senior leaders.

It's sad that ruffling feathers is considered worse than staying quite about an obvious wrong.
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SPC John Decker
SPC John Decker
>1 y
SFC (Join to see) - Some of those subordinates might take it upon themselves to destroy that gravestone. If the "Major had brass balls", those subordinates would make sure the gravestone was clean and taken care of.
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SFC Marc W.
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Apart from all other comments, which a lot of people have said some great things, I'd just like to say any senior that tells a younger soldier to "check down, not up" is a piece of shit. Personally, this is not a hill that I would die on, but that phrase is garbage and used by garbage 'leaders'. If the lower ranking corrector had said it disrespectfully then there is a need for the correction of disrespect, but enforcing a standard is not disrespectful and still not a reason to use that phrase.
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SGT James LeFebvre
SGT James LeFebvre
>1 y
So true. If done respectfully, juniors can, and indeed should make corrections to seniors. The key, is respectfully. You're right, that phrase is generally used by those who have the whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. My take is, well, if YOU'RE not following the standard, then you can't hem up any junior for not following that same standard. Does it happen? Sadly, yes.
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How would you handle a double standard or disregard for Army Regulation?
1SG Dennis Hicks
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Edited >1 y ago
This is going to be an ongoing issue when some NCO's and Officers believe they are above the regs. You can follow a few different avenues of approach with this.
1) Decide what you are willing to do and pay for by pursuing justice and just go head to head with obvious repercussions.
2) Work on keeping your peers and subordinates following the regs and worry about your small piece of the puzzle.
3) Choose your battles wisely, for not all battles are wise to choose.
4) Continue to enforce the regs but keep your eyes and ears open for a troop getting jammed up for violating that reg and step in and point out the "Do as I say, not as I do attitude" from folks who should know better, which may end you like #1
5) Multiple other approaches that can end your career or make it very difficult when you have toxic leaders.

There is no simple answer when leaders forget they are the keepers of the standards and regulations. As a SRNCO I have slipped up and been corrected by someone junior to me and I took a breath, looked at what I did and thanked the NCO for being true to their duties. I usually got a strange look then a smile. But then again I am not stranger to multiple dates of rank either :)
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SGT Javier Silva
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This is honestly were IG can do a lot of help with a problem. Yes, everyone says "don't go to IG." But I say, why not? Isn't that what they are there for? Soldier has legitimate gripe. If the leadership won't fix themselves, they have other avenues of approach, to include, in very rare circumstances, his/her Senator.
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Cpl John Cogswell
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In the days when when I worked (briefly) in our Battalion head shed, sometimes junior Marines would come in and see one of our officers (or the old man himself) partaking.

Leadership by example, boys. I won't give you guff about it if they're smoking in the GP tent. Just hold on to your dip can and don't knock it over.

I guess the leadership by example memo didn't make it in the Army.
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MSG Danny Mathers
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Some things are best unsaid. There will always be some kind of double standard. The problem with taking on a chain of command for "do as I say, not what I do" can put you under the 'Gun" as a trouble maker. Every one makes mistakes which if you screw up in the military, you can be hammered or overlooked. Usually, good Soldiers that make mistakes are ignored. Back in my day we used to have these gripe sessions which I came to realize were "incrimanate me" sessions. Soldiers that brought issues to the chain of command that became personal attacks became target of command influence. Life is not fair and people hold grudges for reasons. Like I said every one crews up; Don't put your self in a situation where you will screw yourself. This is old school Army advise. Opinions vary.......
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COL Gary Gresh
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Interesting. I agree with CSM STCYR. You own the problem now. You need to take it directly to the COC. If you fail to follow up then it makes you part of the problem. The COC May blow you off but they need to know that they are letting down everyone. You either have standards or not. You don’t get to choose which regulations you want to enforce. Your unit and it’s leaders are in trouble.
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SPC John Decker
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Some regulations are harder to enforce than others. That being said, you should kick it up the chain. A soldier brought it to your attention. You know his complaint is valid. When you know that links, in the chain-of-command, are weakened, you go past them to a link you believe to be strong. JMO.
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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How? You get to know your operating environment. You don't honestly believe that every single regulation is followed in its entirety. Not all of the mandated annual training is completed every year. One captain wrote a paper tallying the required training showing that if we "actually" completed all the requirements for mandatory training, company commanders would have two weeks of training days available to them. Nor is every rule within every regulation followed. Not every rule carries the same weight or value. Wearing your seat belt or ground guiding a vehicle are rules that have a heavy weight because of the impact on the operating environment. They are safety rules that can cause immediate death if not followed. While putting your hands in your pockets, or having unbloused boots are less weighted and given different priorities depending on the operating environment. In the garrison walking around the battalion HQ they could make you a target. In the field they could be perfectly acceptable. Before we go off about how NCOs jobs are tk support standards, remember that the standards are there to support us, no the other way around. Standards are set to enable us to meet a goal based on the mission or operating environment. Our job is not to enforce standards, our job is to accomplish missions, train, coach and mentor, and standards are a tool designed to those ends.

Alcohol and tobacco are part of the combat arms culture. Dipping is especially important for combat arms because smoking is so discouraged in the field. So, combat arms dip while doing other tasks and it helps stay awake. The support soldiers are able to take breaks and go out and smoke. So, you get this cultural divide where combat arms look at smokers as lazy people taking breaks constantly, and the support soldiers seeing the combat arms as rule breakers because they refuse to stand around doing nothing while they are dipping.
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SGT Javier Silva
SGT Javier Silva
>1 y
SSG Brian G. - That is true. In the public sector, once the people get tired of having a double standard imposed, they get rid of the mayor, no? Recall votes.

However, the military community is much smaller and closer, where decisions by leadership are felt as almost as immediate as the decision itself. Also, as a military member we aren't led by a someone who has never walked in our military shoes (that isn't to say that we don't have officers whom have never walked in enlisted shoes). Our NCO support channel is there to help enforce the standard, and when that channel is broken, what do you do?
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SSG Brian G.
SSG Brian G.
>1 y
SGT Javier Silva - When that channel is broken, you do the best you can do. You identify the problem and if you can, you fix it. Or you bring it to the attention of those above you so it can be addressed. What you however don't do is assume that just because it is broken that it is ok to do as seen.

Change comes slowly, but it does come. Eventually there will be those in command positions that enforce the regulations seriously. Who knows, it could even be one of the junior enlisted that decide to step up their game and either go Warrant or full on commission as an Officer.
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SGT Javier Silva
SGT Javier Silva
>1 y
SSG Brian G. - True again. However, it leads back to the mentality that "Check down, not up" is not good.
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SSG Brian G.
SSG Brian G.
>1 y
SGT Javier Silva - No way around it... at this time. SM checks up, what happens? Sure they catch some senior NCO or officer breaking regs and maybe that person gets a chewing, maybe even UCMU action... then the 'checkers' career comes to a near screeching halt. That SM suddenly finds that regulations they had been allowed to maybe slide on before, are now enforced without error. If so inclined they could even drum the SM out of the military... then what does that teach those below him or her? To go with the flow and not rock the boat, which perpetuates the problem in magnitudes...

Or... they check down, leading by example and show those they lead and that look to them how it is supposed to be so that one day change that is fair comes. Have to pick the battles we wage and choose which hill we want to die on. Is this it? Likely not.
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