Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Military bearing
Discipline
Supervisor
Leadership
What Would You Do
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
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It would be a very one sided conversation, with me doing all the talking!!! Then every working party either he or she would be assigned!! They would also not go on Liberty until all divisional spaces were cleaned for the next 14 days!!! Section leaders would be given his ID card at the end of the day!! Giving it to him after his work was inspected!!! In the Navy I grew in some other form of punishment might have been used!!! I found out using working parties and Liberty solved a lot problems!!
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When he finishes running wind sprints next week sometime then you should assign him 500 pushups next. After that it is your choice of activities.
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I would put him on report and have him report to the squadron or unit Sgt.Maj. and nip the problem in the bud immediately. If you let the individual slide by then you will continue having problems from the individual and you would lose the respect of the rest of the troops under your responsibility
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CWO3 (Join to see)
That's an option and I don't disagree but unless he really showed out worse than this makes it sound I would not go that route. Too many ways to handle within the platoon. I look at kicking it upstairs as a silver bullet, reserved for situations that warrant without question. Some might take it personal and seek payback but a smart comment is far from going UA, writing bad checks, theft or whatever. Once you start with NJP you are beginning to run out of options, and what sometimes happens is that a career is ended that might have been saved with some ingenuity and restraint. Again, not disagreeing at all, just saying it's a choice other than what I'd choose. I would not think any less of a leader that chose your course either so please don't take any offense - purely personal choice. If purpose of that COA is to gain attention within the unit or with him, there are other ways to get it done. When his pals are going on liberty and he's filling sandbags or similar for about a week (or weekend) they'll notice. When they get promoted a quarter before him due to his conduct (pro/con marks) due to his mouth they will also notice. If you can do enough within what's permissible that he wishes he could have just paid a fine or been on restriction from NJP then you've achieved your goal. (1) he'll think twice next time (2) his pals will realize there's a price to pay for those actions and it won't fly with you (3) you have reserved your silver bullet and your seniors are not aware of any discipline problems within your unit. Efficiency is whatever scores though, and this is just a exercise in Economy of Management. Best wishes.
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Not every situation is the same, depends on some elements however that type of behavior either need to be corrected if possible or He needs to go. Only once did I have to carry it beyond My control, and relieved an Airman on post, had Him turn in His weapon and tell Him He would not be working again unless told to do so. He had not only did He disobey an order but created a scene. I informed the upper echelon of our unit I didn't want Him working for Me again ever, whatever You do with him don't send Him back to me or My men. We don't need Him or want Him. We was given an Article 15, his promotion to E3 was red lined, , He was reduced in rank from from E2 to E1 and removed from the career field. That is the only time in all my time as an NCO I ever had to do that. I had not only the support of My senior Officers and NCOs but the other men that worked for Me as well. That was back when i was a SSgt. I just over 22 years in uniform He was the only one to ever work for Me that I had to take that action with. All the rest were good troops and we all worked well together and most I never had to tell to do anything, they knew their jobs and did what was expected of them. That one man just didn't get the concept of teamwork !
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I know this is hypothetical, but is this some type of trend that is currently developing? Under no circumstances should this be tolerated. This is a safety issue above everything else. Especially if this is a combat unit! Regardless of the background behind the event, at the very least this would be an immediate walk to Top's office. The E-5 has neither training or authority to handle this type of encounter. I saw plenty of confrontations between E-4 and E-5, in barracks or field, but never in formation and never outright refusal of a order. But, a fresh faced E-2? Can't be tolerated.
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SPC Don Wynn
MAJ Steven Perry - Agreed, but from all indications, it's a brave new world out there!! When I was in, as an E-4 in mortars, it was pretty much STFU, do your job or get a kick to the knee cap, throat punch, etc!
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SGT Teddy Holtry
I had been in since the 70s,was an E-5 in the 80's, Drill Sergeants were E-5's back then
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PO1 Jahn Henderson
I almost have to agree with SPC Wynn. To begin with I was in the Navy, we handled things a little differently than those of you that are on the front lines, but also, i got out in 1995 after 11 1/2 years, was offered only crap orders thanks to Mr. Clintons draw down and keeping all of the "Yes Men" and kiss asses.
I would think though, in this day and age, any senior personnel would have to be real careful how they treat juniors. It is not like back in the old days of going into and empty space, and having a "Talk", now I believe that they actually have to bring the idiots feelings into perspective.
I would think though, in this day and age, any senior personnel would have to be real careful how they treat juniors. It is not like back in the old days of going into and empty space, and having a "Talk", now I believe that they actually have to bring the idiots feelings into perspective.
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SPC Don Wynn
PO1 Jahn Henderson - Like I said, a brave new world! However, I'd still have to go back and ask the real question; how would the E2 snot nose even consider that behavior to be acceptable? Training failed somewhere along the line.
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Inform them that it's not open to negotiation! Drop and give me 100 open your mouth again it will a long day before I get tired of watching you do push-ups then you will complete the assignment on your free time! Anyone else have an opinion they want to share?
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Some excellent answers. I’m still trying to figure v out what a senior E5 is.
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first of all, i was in leadership positions in most of my E-4 career, .. i had young soldiers like that and i pulled them aside .. do not address matters of such in front of other soldiers .. next of all, if that did not work ,, i involved my immed leader he/she was E-5P &/or E6 (i had both genders for leaders), .. next of all most of times that worked w/ me nearby .. because some Pvts/Pv2s/PFCs/young E-4s had tried to distort the regs, etc. .. one time had to involve the Bn SgtMjr and in days that issue caused a soldier's chapter discharge .. that ruined the ex-soldier's career from better advancements/etc.
a. keep a constant check to make sure younger soldiers are not violated via drugs, or other illicit activities
b. pull soldier aside for to clear issue(s) DO NOT ADDRESS SOLDIER in front of squad, platoon, etc. unless issue(s) involves the whole team, etc.
c. treat soldier(s) with respect, tact, etc. even if they try craziness, etc. occasionally let them vent but make sure they are not endangering their self or others in that respect.
a. keep a constant check to make sure younger soldiers are not violated via drugs, or other illicit activities
b. pull soldier aside for to clear issue(s) DO NOT ADDRESS SOLDIER in front of squad, platoon, etc. unless issue(s) involves the whole team, etc.
c. treat soldier(s) with respect, tact, etc. even if they try craziness, etc. occasionally let them vent but make sure they are not endangering their self or others in that respect.
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Military members failing to obey lawful orders issued by their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) outlines the crime of willful disobedience by a military member a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 covers willful disobedience of a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 conveys what constitutes the crime of disobedience of any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be "willful" under this article). I would first give them an opportunity to explain why they think they could disobey my command. If there was a valid reason I might reconsider the order then explain the punishment they were going to receive for the blatant disrespect for the chain of command.
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I had a "Discipline Problem" handed to me from a different department. He had respect for me and my Superiors were impressed that I had him in line. That ended when he back talked our 2nd LT under his breath in front of me. My fellow marines thought I was soft on this guy... until that day. Article 15 was the rule of the day.
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Article 15 right up for disobeying a direct order. Recommend max restriction to base restrict all liberty and let it be known that should the individual repeat this behavior that everyone would be restricted to base. The rest of his platoon should instruct the newbe on proper military berring.
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Nipped at the bud. I am not the "alpha" person-Dang. I believe drawing a line in the line. Do or see chief or 1st sergeant. . Career at stake.
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Back when I was in a little fan room counseling would have been in order. In today's kinder gentler military, that's probably a career killer.
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In the old days I would rip their throat out. But being in the kinder gentler Army I would suggest not doing that. But that is behavior that CANNOT be tolerated. Especially in front of the troops. Remember, if they laugh at you in peace time they will laugh at you in war. I would suggest you call that soldier out for their disrespect and immediately after formation you bring the soldier and their first line in your office and take disciplinary action.
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I answered this thread not long ago and I can only say that by the answers of alot of the current NCO'S I am SO glad I'm retired. Half my Sergeants because that's what alot of these are if you get my meaning would have been on their way out the door. Tear them up and feed them to their peers was always the best way plus some very strong corrective training that will go a long way hell put might actually learn and be better for it.
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Easy... they go to the LPO (E-6) and the LPO tells them what they are expected to do as the E-5 told them and tell them to apologize to the E-5. Anything less than that happens after LPO intervention and they are at parade rest in front of my office after my LPO comes to me.
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