Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Military bearing
Discipline
Supervisor
Leadership
What Would You Do
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 3697
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I had this exact thing happen to me once. I told an airman to do something, and he told me "I DON'T WORK FOR YOU".
Excuse me, airman?
"I don't work for you, I work for Sergeant XXX".
Now, I had been out of the Marine Corps for maybe 12 years and in the Air Force for 10 years by this time, but I saw red and the old knife hand appeared, and I proceeded to explain to him about stripes and ranks and that he WOULD do what I told him or he and I would be in front of the commander immediately.
I was LOUD. They probably heard it 500 yards away.
When I finished, I asked him if he understood me, and he was trying to get under an airplane to get away from me, and telling me "Yes, sir" repeatedly.
We really got along well after that. Never another problem from him, with me or anybody else.
Excuse me, airman?
"I don't work for you, I work for Sergeant XXX".
Now, I had been out of the Marine Corps for maybe 12 years and in the Air Force for 10 years by this time, but I saw red and the old knife hand appeared, and I proceeded to explain to him about stripes and ranks and that he WOULD do what I told him or he and I would be in front of the commander immediately.
I was LOUD. They probably heard it 500 yards away.
When I finished, I asked him if he understood me, and he was trying to get under an airplane to get away from me, and telling me "Yes, sir" repeatedly.
We really got along well after that. Never another problem from him, with me or anybody else.
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SSgt Liam Babington
I never if at all used the knife hand...was always into devious non aggressive ways to get the attention of Airman under me! The counciling was saved most of the time, maybe I was to lax on the pen but eating up free time got the attention fast!
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SPC Brian Stephens
When an E-4 told an E-5 to fuck off, charges were immediately brought and went right to the new colonel. The Specialist became an instant private and was escorted to the stockade at the Heim for about two months. It really broke him By the time he came back he was all about doing his remaining months' tour and getting the hell out of the Army. He was a loudmouth before who brought in babes into the barracks and like to have sex with them either on tape or with the door open to the hall. The prison transformation was amazing. He did not joke after that and resolved to keep his trap shut and do his time and leave.
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SPC (Join to see)
That’s actually called assault and it’s a crime. I would have beaten the fuck out of you and then reported you.
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I was a rare Corporal, and was publicly punked out by virtually every E6 in the entire Army. I valiantly led every crappy detail that has ever been dumped down the totem pole. By the time I made E5, I was a certified master ninja when dealing with the most imperceptible slight. My reaction to insubordination has always started with "you have obviously lost your mind". The next step (1. corrective action or 2. go see the Wizard) would depend on the location, FORSCOM or BCT land. The regulations are different at BCT land, because the privates say things they shouldn't, most of the time.
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SPC Earl Semler
You can't punish everyone for one sh**bird, you would lose the respect of all the others just like you did with the PVT. No you have to show them that you can't put up with the insubordination that was done in front of them but if you punish them for it who do you think they will blame. This isn't the sixties!~
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CPL Jerry Galloway
SPC Earl Semler - Mass punishment was still a thing in the 90's. It's a 50/50 bet on the effectiveness. It got the needed effect in my experience.
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Turn over the formation to next ranking NCO, tell E2 to follow you to your office. Pull out your copy of UCMJ, and counseling form. Put E2 at parade rest. Read possible charges, ask if he wants to see CO for Article 15 punishment or deal with you. Get to the bottom of the problem. Find a solution! Fill out the counseling form, give him your punishment and tell him if he keeps his act together the counseling and your memory will disappear in 3-6 months. Then find his team leader, and jump him for letting the problem fester
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SFC James Smith
The words SGM and 1st SGT still make my head snap around. The first thing I do is to see if there's any grass under my boots, then I start checking my NCOs and snuffies.
In the case of public insubordination, the offending troop gets a semi-private review of the events (one NCO witness), a review of what constitutes a lawful order and one chance to immediately comply at the level of a counseling with voluntary additional duty. The counseling session allows the offender one opportunity to present extenuating circumstances. The counseling is one directional, loud and in the offender's face ... an invitation to a physical response is provided through nonverbal means. This does not rise up the chain to my 1st Sgt, XO or CO for a first offense, if at all possible. Counseling slip becomes known to the Plt Ldr, but stays in the "file drawer".
In the case of public insubordination, the offending troop gets a semi-private review of the events (one NCO witness), a review of what constitutes a lawful order and one chance to immediately comply at the level of a counseling with voluntary additional duty. The counseling session allows the offender one opportunity to present extenuating circumstances. The counseling is one directional, loud and in the offender's face ... an invitation to a physical response is provided through nonverbal means. This does not rise up the chain to my 1st Sgt, XO or CO for a first offense, if at all possible. Counseling slip becomes known to the Plt Ldr, but stays in the "file drawer".
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SPC (Join to see)
This is the only legitimate response so far. CSM knows what’s up. I’m tired of reading all these old heads saying shit like “back in my day I would have out my hands on them”
Like don’t you guys know you can’t just assault people anymore? Nobody gives a fuck how old you are unless you are about to fight someone you shouldn’t be touching them.
Like don’t you guys know you can’t just assault people anymore? Nobody gives a fuck how old you are unless you are about to fight someone you shouldn’t be touching them.
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I disagree with the word Punish, you deal with the issue right then since there are 20 other enlisted men that will judge you on how you handle this situation. You are punishing, you are correcting a illegal act. From being enlisted in USMC and 82nd Abn, I've had this happen. Thank God I witnessed a senior Sergeant in the same situation and did what he did. I called two other NCOs over, told the soldier to assume the position of attention. I then calmly to told him, with my fellow Sgts standing there, did I hear him correctly that he was refusing a lawful order, specifically Article 92, and would be subject to the consequences. He started to say something and one of the other SGTs immediately shut him down and said, it was a yes or no question. I asked him the question again. He said he was not refusing and was cut off again by me this time when he wanted to talk. The other SGT, then asked the platoon, who was going to let the PFC not do his fair share of work. The first time this PFC got smart. This is important point, we still wrote his ass up, put him on extra duty for 3 days, working by himself, and kept the counseling sheet if it ever happened again.
Another time I was witness and helped when the PVT refused and would not comply. He was separated and marched right to the 1SGT where hell was unleashed.
Discipline is absolute. Without it, an unit breaks down into a mob.
Another time I was witness and helped when the PVT refused and would not comply. He was separated and marched right to the 1SGT where hell was unleashed.
Discipline is absolute. Without it, an unit breaks down into a mob.
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CW3 Dick McManus
Speaking in a disrespectful way to me in front of other soldiers of the same or lower rank requires immediate (assertive) push-back. The best way to reply is give the soldier time to think and correct him/herself. For example, by saying, "You are expected to speak in a respectful tone to me." Or.."I heard what you said, and I am angry (or embarrassed) about what you just said to me. I am your boss and it is disrespectful to say that to me."
Now if the soldier, continues to say things that are "out of order," then the leader should just repeat ..."You are expected to speak in a respectful tone of voice or you are expected not to speak when in the position of "attention" and/or in formation."
Now if you out rank the E2 who has spoken up like this or in a disrespectful tone and you are a lower rank than me, you have a duty to use this assertive method of "Jacking up to disrespectful soldier.
By using this method, a leader will not cause a mentally ill to continue his/her crazy behavior or criminal soldier to act out. Secondly, when you go home at night, you do not carry over bad habits to you loved ones.
The Science of Assertiveness theory -- aka folk knowledge (trial and error science)
Assertive (Leadership) behavior by humans: Builds relationships
Will the long-term affects be worse than any short-term discomfort I may feel if I am assertive in the first place?
An angry and loud communication can be assertive if one is expressing feelings (Using the word "I", ( I am really god damn anger at you ...)
vs. HOSTILE behavior-destroys a relationship: for example, ... “You dumb ass, didn't your mother teach you to report to work on time, etc. etc. Why, didn't you do such and such.... You should do such and such”
If someone has a habit of saying, "Why, don't you do such and such..." we all understand this to mean "I want you" to do such and such. There seems to be some kind of a taboo in our culture against people saying straight up, that they want.
On the use of the word YOU:
...the use of the word "you" is assertive when a person is acting in the role of boss, parent, or leader, for example, a law enforcer, a teacher, the chair of a meeting.
"You are expected to" (follow the rules, etc) , then every time the other person comes up with excuses, sob stories, etc, repeating this phase again and again ("You are expected to" (aka using the broken record shows the other person that you are not afraid to stand your ground and they need for them to rethink their poor behavior.
But remember being skeptically silent is assertive. Meaning, if I try to get the last word.. will I get punched in the nose or some other bad result.
Speaking up in a group to speak is assertive because one is taking the "psychological space" of the whole group.
Hostile behavior: A person uses sarcasm and intimidation to get what they want. One may get what they want, but destroys the relationship afterwards.
It is easy to give up the benefits of hostile behavior when I value myself enough to avoid getting agitated over minor issues and when I am imperfect and incorrect.
Non-assertive behavior: (shy behavior) doing nothing about unpleasant situations and simply try to ignore ones feelings and desires. While it may prevent conflicts with others, one probably will wind up feeling helpless, exploited, angry, and disappointed with one’s self. Being “too shy” to do something.
For example, “I am sorry to bother you.” This is an example, of how being NICE sucks us into a non-assertive down-hill fall. vs. “I want to talk to you.” “ I need your help or I need or want to talk to you.”
or "It was nice talking to you." (when it wasn't and you didn't enjoy talking to them).
Basic Assertive Rights:
1. The right to act in ways that promote my dignity and self-respect as long as others’ rights are not violated in the process.
2. The right to be treated with respect.
3. The right to say no and not feel guilty.
4. The right to experience and express feelings.
5. The right to take time to slow down and think.
6. The right to change my mind.
7. The right to ask for what I want.
8. The right to do less than I are humanly capable of doing.
9. The right to ask for information.
10. The right to make mistakes.
11. The right to feel good about myself.
Must I always assert my rights?
No, I am always free to choose not to assert myself, assuming that I am also willing to take the responsibility for whatever consequences may then occur. I do not have to be assertive all the time, but just try to be better.
Source: The Assertive Option by Patricia Jakubowski and Arthur J. Lange
and NO TRESPASSING by Barker and Barker.
Now if the soldier, continues to say things that are "out of order," then the leader should just repeat ..."You are expected to speak in a respectful tone of voice or you are expected not to speak when in the position of "attention" and/or in formation."
Now if you out rank the E2 who has spoken up like this or in a disrespectful tone and you are a lower rank than me, you have a duty to use this assertive method of "Jacking up to disrespectful soldier.
By using this method, a leader will not cause a mentally ill to continue his/her crazy behavior or criminal soldier to act out. Secondly, when you go home at night, you do not carry over bad habits to you loved ones.
The Science of Assertiveness theory -- aka folk knowledge (trial and error science)
Assertive (Leadership) behavior by humans: Builds relationships
Will the long-term affects be worse than any short-term discomfort I may feel if I am assertive in the first place?
An angry and loud communication can be assertive if one is expressing feelings (Using the word "I", ( I am really god damn anger at you ...)
vs. HOSTILE behavior-destroys a relationship: for example, ... “You dumb ass, didn't your mother teach you to report to work on time, etc. etc. Why, didn't you do such and such.... You should do such and such”
If someone has a habit of saying, "Why, don't you do such and such..." we all understand this to mean "I want you" to do such and such. There seems to be some kind of a taboo in our culture against people saying straight up, that they want.
On the use of the word YOU:
...the use of the word "you" is assertive when a person is acting in the role of boss, parent, or leader, for example, a law enforcer, a teacher, the chair of a meeting.
"You are expected to" (follow the rules, etc) , then every time the other person comes up with excuses, sob stories, etc, repeating this phase again and again ("You are expected to" (aka using the broken record shows the other person that you are not afraid to stand your ground and they need for them to rethink their poor behavior.
But remember being skeptically silent is assertive. Meaning, if I try to get the last word.. will I get punched in the nose or some other bad result.
Speaking up in a group to speak is assertive because one is taking the "psychological space" of the whole group.
Hostile behavior: A person uses sarcasm and intimidation to get what they want. One may get what they want, but destroys the relationship afterwards.
It is easy to give up the benefits of hostile behavior when I value myself enough to avoid getting agitated over minor issues and when I am imperfect and incorrect.
Non-assertive behavior: (shy behavior) doing nothing about unpleasant situations and simply try to ignore ones feelings and desires. While it may prevent conflicts with others, one probably will wind up feeling helpless, exploited, angry, and disappointed with one’s self. Being “too shy” to do something.
For example, “I am sorry to bother you.” This is an example, of how being NICE sucks us into a non-assertive down-hill fall. vs. “I want to talk to you.” “ I need your help or I need or want to talk to you.”
or "It was nice talking to you." (when it wasn't and you didn't enjoy talking to them).
Basic Assertive Rights:
1. The right to act in ways that promote my dignity and self-respect as long as others’ rights are not violated in the process.
2. The right to be treated with respect.
3. The right to say no and not feel guilty.
4. The right to experience and express feelings.
5. The right to take time to slow down and think.
6. The right to change my mind.
7. The right to ask for what I want.
8. The right to do less than I are humanly capable of doing.
9. The right to ask for information.
10. The right to make mistakes.
11. The right to feel good about myself.
Must I always assert my rights?
No, I am always free to choose not to assert myself, assuming that I am also willing to take the responsibility for whatever consequences may then occur. I do not have to be assertive all the time, but just try to be better.
Source: The Assertive Option by Patricia Jakubowski and Arthur J. Lange
and NO TRESPASSING by Barker and Barker.
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LTC David Zimmerman
Chief, the question was concerning a PVT speaking to a Senior SGT. Your comments concerning other scenarios are insightful. Thank you
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I dismiss him/her to the orderly room, take a witness, and first ask why your order was refused. Then instruct that person on the proper way to address an NCO. And get it all on paper.
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SPC Don Wynn
CPL Robert Dickson - So sorry to hear about your mental issues! Hope you are getting better every day. Thank you for your service!
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SGT (Join to see)
I love the bring a witness comment. I have seen several issues not handled correctly because it turns into your word vs mine.
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Wow! Sounds like suicide by NCO.I can't even imagine such a thing.
I would never let things get so out of control, but we are way past the nice guy approach now.
There is no other option but to smoke the hell out of him.
After discipline is restored in the unit (and it has to happen immediately)
...then its time to speak with the CDR an article 15.
At some point after the dust settles, the NCO's in the unit have to figure out what went wrong. Things should never get this bad.
I would never let things get so out of control, but we are way past the nice guy approach now.
There is no other option but to smoke the hell out of him.
After discipline is restored in the unit (and it has to happen immediately)
...then its time to speak with the CDR an article 15.
At some point after the dust settles, the NCO's in the unit have to figure out what went wrong. Things should never get this bad.
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SGT Tom Middleton
Good afternoon SPC Ezell,
That’s a good question.
At one time, the meaning of “smoking the hell out of a soldier” was clearly understood. Perhaps it is a phrase no longer in common use.
Typically smoking the hell out of a soldier would involve immediate rigorous PT.
Respectfully,
Sgt Middleton
That’s a good question.
At one time, the meaning of “smoking the hell out of a soldier” was clearly understood. Perhaps it is a phrase no longer in common use.
Typically smoking the hell out of a soldier would involve immediate rigorous PT.
Respectfully,
Sgt Middleton
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Kathy Shingleton
SGT Tom Middleton even I know what that means! And that it need's to be brought back. I've used it on my kid's and now my grandson! If it's not broke why fix it!
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Sgt Kerry Thurlow
I love that phrase, "suicide by NCO."
"Are you suicidal or just stupid?"
Some habits die harder than others. That question may have come out of my mouth in a civilian workplace. Yes, I did get some looks and a couple of snickers. However, my point was heard and task was accomplished.
"Are you suicidal or just stupid?"
Some habits die harder than others. That question may have come out of my mouth in a civilian workplace. Yes, I did get some looks and a couple of snickers. However, my point was heard and task was accomplished.
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SGT Walter Drumm
That and every second of free time they had for the next week or so outside of chow, sleeping and latrine would've belonged to me until the point got across. That would included staff duty runner for at least the next 2 weekends. Let PV2 Shitbird know that whatever he thought was important or wanted to do didn't matter.
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well....That is just nice soldier...see me after formation in tops office....you gonna learn today.
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James Harris
That's when the greatest generation was running the military! From WW2 until the late 80's once Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf had retired then all the sissy rules starting getting added. I think to have a tough and war ready military you have to make them tough and war ready and that's not by reading a bunch of I realize you have to learn about war strategy but the only way to learn is by practicing. I may not know what the hell im talking about because I have never been in the military because I am a type1 diabetic which excludes me from entering but I just want you to know if I didn't have this damn disease I would love to stand shoulder to shoulder with you guys and protect our country from any enemies foreign and domestic.That's from being taught by people who have been through combat expierience and can explain to the soldiers what emotions and things they will go through while being in a firefight out on a battlefield. There is really no way to truly learn unless you get out there and do it. Thanks for reading my two cents worth and if I am totally wrong please let me know so I can rescind my statement!
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If you are a senior E5and you need to ask this question, then you do not need to be promoted to E6. Take his ass to the Platoon Leader request an article15 for insubordination. Take his money and his spare time. Maybe you should pay better attention while in warrior leader course and BNCO. Fuck I can't believe you asked this. Are you a fucking snowflake?
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CWO3 (Join to see)
PO2 Tony Barbour - I would have followed the actions I outlined. On the Command Fall Out, PFC Smuck and Squad leader Stand Fast! Fall out!
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SPC Patrick Shaw
I am old school; I saw great Officers and Senior NCO'S who utilized judicial discipline as a last resort. START PUSHIN' works pretty well. Folks change their attitude when they reach muscle failure.
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As a former Drill Instructor, I realize that an idiot like this will only get himself and others killed when the chips are down. Here's my gut reaction!
I would jump so far down his throat that he would do something really stupid! When he does, Court Martial, busted, brig time, and out of my Marine Corps! Had instances like this over my 20 years and gave found that it is a waste of my time to spend 90% of my time trying to square away the trash! Better to throw it out and work with Marines you will be able to count on!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC Ret.
I would jump so far down his throat that he would do something really stupid! When he does, Court Martial, busted, brig time, and out of my Marine Corps! Had instances like this over my 20 years and gave found that it is a waste of my time to spend 90% of my time trying to square away the trash! Better to throw it out and work with Marines you will be able to count on!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC Ret.
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CPL Joseph Elinger
Absolutely.
Where ANY soldier is involved, potentially, "lives are (eventually) @ stake.
Where ANY soldier is involved, potentially, "lives are (eventually) @ stake.
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CWO3 (Join to see)
In the whisky locker, with no depot spies around. Avoid Ribbon Creek, but it's your watch.
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In AIT, I was caught with cigarettes on my person. Instead of ART 15, I was to collect 5000 cigarette butts and have them lined up in formation by the next Sunday 1700 formation. I was about 2400 shy, and still got a summarized ART 15 for not collecting enough.
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SSG (Join to see)
LOL I am genuinely curious, did they have you count them and take your word for it? Or did someone else have to count them?
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I'm old school, and it would probably be the last time you disrespected me. I had a private challenge my authority and he had some remedial training on how to dig a proper hole in the sand. Lets just say when he was done we could have buried a deuce and a half. Problem solved!
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Usually, if you establish yourself from the get go as alpha, you rarely get problems. In this case, you can go a few ways with it. A.) separate the Soldier from the pack and put it in writing and recommend punishment under UCMJ. Your chain of command ought to support your decision in recommending the Soldier to be meritoriously promoted to E-fuzzy. Or B.) If the Soldier was a solid performer and worth your time, you figure out what's going on that would cause them to act out so you, as his/her leader, can find a resolution....then there's C.) depending on your combatives savvy, your afternoon PT session involves the platoon learning about combatives with that problem Soldier as your training partner.
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I'd would have had the rest of the squad doing push-ups until their arms fell of and then put them in a private room with him with instructions that I would not be back for an hour.
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SGT Tom Middleton
MSG (Join to see) - MSG, I think I've been retired too long. What is a CI? Is it really forbidden to drop a soldier for pushups nowadays?
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT Tom Middleton - congressional investigation, your now from my understanding able to give out 10 push ups
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SPC Paul Byre
I wont lie i broke lots of rules in the army in order to do my job properly but even with all the rules i broke i was never dumb enough to back talk or question a lawful order! Hell if i knew ahead of time that I'd be breaking a rule that would get me punished i would schedule volunteer time with my CO. And would still do any extra duty knowing that if i had to break the rules again to protect my unit i would (happened almost weekly in country) it got to the point my Commander and Top started calling me yo-yo because as soon as i would earn rank back i would have to use back channels and get parts that couldn't be got and if you pissed off the wrong person in the process they would do what they can to put you on the right path according to the regulations. For me it was mostly rebuilding parts above my training level in the army. However that was my civilian job before enlisting and i was trained and certified to do so. I knew i was breaking the rules but i always took responsibility for my actions! I got great at low crawling, running and my favorite Local indigenous person's monitoring (fancy for baby sitting) even though iv been out for years i still have my old deployment groups calling me for help on part rebuilding for vehicles and i love helping with special projects from time to time but i wouldn't change one thing about my time in service because it helped make me the person i am today or at least whats left is here today!
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In the Old Days, he would be taken behind the barracks for thump call. Can't do that now, so I would call him out of the formation, leaving the next senior rank in charge, and walk the shitbird E2 out of earshot and sight of anyone else and tell him that he best unf*** himself 'cause I am gonna be all over his ass like stink on s***. And if no one is looking, a shot to the chest/solar plexus to emphasize my point.
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CPL Jordan Roach
I had an issue like that when I was a E4 we had and E6 no one respected I would always follow my orders given but one day my platoon leader let me in charge of the motor pool because I was the ranking mechanic and this same E6 who was the supply Sargent came down barking orders at my Joe's I told them to carry on and respectful asked the NCO why is he telling my guy how to fix shit when he does not know any thing a bout vehical repair and he tried that come out back were Gona talk shit and when he went to swing on me I beat him like a rented mule . I'm not saying that I'm proud of this but there are so many shit bag ncos these days and they wonder why they get no respect
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SSG Paul Headlee
Cpl Deryle Anderson Yes it works. As leaders we don't go running to the Commander every time someone wants to replace us as the alpha.
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Going back to my tims, I would have that person stand tall and give them the most traumatic ass chewing of their adult life and then make sure that they were on every shitty job imagineable until I got tired.
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MSgt Roger Settlemyer
Ya Chief Right On, They can't run very far on a Ship ! Better Yet put him in the Marine Brig aboard ship for R and R.( Till You Get Tired)
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CWO3 (Join to see)
much respect for USN period, especially CPO's and LPO's...but Seabees are outstanding, I had a reserve unit punch a well for our unit while they were on summer drill at Camp Lejeune, seems they were out of USNR unit in Massachusetts, they knew their stuff for sure and were totally professional, the higher ups weren't thrilled about it because of all the water controversy that was recently settled with some $$$, but luckily I had CYA by coordinating it in advance with the II MEF Engineer Officer in G-4, the Base folks got their skivvies in a wad over it though, I figured it was easier to ask forgiveness than permission and got lucky, if I'd asked and gotten Base involved it would likely have never gotten done
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1SG (Join to see)
I agree, significant emotional events will solve a lot of issues. No safe spaces snowflake this it the Military!!!
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Holy fucking shit....I've been in for almost two years and I would never ever say anything but yes to my NCO unless it was unconstitutional.
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PFC (Join to see)
Unlawful yes, but unconstitutional is the main premise. Sometimes it's called to make unlawful decisions based on the mission. Unconstitutional is different.LCpl Bradley Otto -
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SSG Harold Hargrave
This isn't know Democracy! This is the military, The individual will do as told. If he has a problem he can talk to me afterwards, and if their is a physical reason he cannot do what he is told, I will make a judgment call at that time. As for Mouthing off during a formation, an article 15 is in order, might even have him at parade rest for the as long as I can get away with...
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CPO William A. Bullard Jr.
If i give you a G/D order, unless it violates UCMJ, Navy Mar.Corps regulations, Command Instructions, State, Federal or Local law, or Geneva conventions you will God damned well carry it out, not in five minutes, or next year but right now and there will be no "...F***k Yous..." in front of folks because you will pay for it in skin that is a promise
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LCpl Stephen Arnold
CPO William A. Bullard Jr. - I always found you Chiefs to be some of the most compassionate and sincere human beings on the planet. CPO Bullard you epitomize that! LOL
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