Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
I experienced this once, once. The soldier was a squared away Specialist, and my friend, but he chose to disrespect me with our platoon sergeant present. I treated him like a little brother, I grabbed his collar, pulled him away from the others, and explained to him quietly what was about to happen if he didn't move out. I never had a problem from any of my soldiers afterwards. He and I remain friends, the platoon sergeant was impressed, and everything went accordingly.
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I would ask the Soldier to rethink his/her comment, then I would initiate the appropriate paperwork and ensure that the Soldier was well versed in the best way to clean a latrine by hand!
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It is a question of is this the 1st time this PVT did this or has he done it to others before and got away with it and he thinks he can do it to you. You have to immediately ask them if they enjoy jail time and a BCD or are they just confused on how to do their assignment. This should be done in front of all the other soldiers in the formation so they know this conduct will not be tolerated and should be asked without screaming but in a steady loud voice so everyone hears your reply. Never show how angry you are with the PVT to everyone that can be done in private counseling session.
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At the end of formation say E2 ___ and E2___ only stand fast.Fall out to orderly room for counseling.
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You used the avenue where you politely tell them again to do the job again. You are their direct superior. If you want to do simple counselling or maybe a physical motivator, I would say go ahead and if you want to cover your butt, ask the next person up in the chain (your boss) if it is appropriate to give said physical punishment. You could also have them go tell your superior that they refuse to do the job and that THEY should find a new person (I am assuming an E5s direct superior would either be the E7 for the troops or their Division officer [O1-O2]). I am sure that will go over well for the E2.
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This is a great question and it gets my blood going just reading it.
As an NCO this scenario is a perfect example of needing to balance two ideas with your approach. The two ideas are "maintaining good order & discipline" and "praise in public, correct in private"
I believe the first idea overrides the second when it comes to such publicly displayed insubordination. The only way to compound their error is to be in a larger formation or commit additional offenses.
My approach would be to directly address the insubordination. They would quickly learn the current(you already f'd up) and future(if you EVER do it again!) consequences of such behavior. Counseling and further correction would follow after dismissal of the formation.
I would also take into consideration the rank and time in service of the Soldier. This could be a great learning and development opportunity for them. However that is dependent upon their attitude, their remorsefulness, and maturity.
As an NCO this scenario is a perfect example of needing to balance two ideas with your approach. The two ideas are "maintaining good order & discipline" and "praise in public, correct in private"
I believe the first idea overrides the second when it comes to such publicly displayed insubordination. The only way to compound their error is to be in a larger formation or commit additional offenses.
My approach would be to directly address the insubordination. They would quickly learn the current(you already f'd up) and future(if you EVER do it again!) consequences of such behavior. Counseling and further correction would follow after dismissal of the formation.
I would also take into consideration the rank and time in service of the Soldier. This could be a great learning and development opportunity for them. However that is dependent upon their attitude, their remorsefulness, and maturity.
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Calmly tell him to come with me, take him into the Platoon Office with the Platoon Leader as a commissioned Officer there to witness and repeat the order as a Direct Order, as an NCO can give a lawful Order and not a Direct Order, when Dough head refuses both me and the Platoon Leader I start the packet, refer him for Courts Martial to the Company Commander, revoke his AIRBORNE Status and take him to JAG for a lawyer and if all goes well nail his little E-2 Ass to a cross and let him bleed to death. I will FIND things that he has fouled up on to add to the charge sheet. He will OWE the Army money when he out-processes.
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I remember back in the day when at the end of the week Top would march the company down to the gym and anyone with PP would put on the gloves and get in the ring. It worked wonders for moral and nipping problems in the bud
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Get into their personal space, right up next to their ear and clearly communicate the situation including a few questions so they will have to answer "yes, sgt" "no, sgt." "you're word is law, sgt? That is all the others will need to hear to understand that order is in place.
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when I was in there was a lot simpler solution it went like this. Everyone say thank you to Private Shitberg and now you may commence PUSHUPS FOREVER !!
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SSgt Stephen Snyder
While Private Shitbag reads aloud the UCMJ article by article. We had to do this once picking up leaves while the idiot read. It only stopped because he got so upset that his nose started to bleed so snot & blood was flying everywhere. Good times
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Depends on what you call being a "smart mouth".
If a SM is disregarding lawful instructions, cite the regulations giving you the authority to give those instructions and the potential administrative/punitive/legal consequences for failing to carry out those instructions.
Show them the regulation. DO NOT tell them to look it up. Nothing will give a firmer impression that you're making it up as you go.
Also, don't try the old BS excuse about "not having the time to explain". If you're in garrison, you have the time. If you're not in garrison, neither of you should've made it that far, without this being understood. You've been placed in a position of leadership. Lead.
If, after these things have been thoroughly explained and cited, the behavior persists, call the JAG Office. They're open most weekdays. Have a Legal Specialist describe the lengths (and limits) of your authority to this SM. In fact, it may be a good idea to include the JAG representative at your next Battalion Organizational Day, giving a brief class on this very subject.
If the behavior STILL persists, it's time to start some paperwork. At this point, it cannot be argued that you've given the SM every opportunity to understand their duties and obligations. If they are choosing not to meet those obligations, they belong some place else.
Now, if by "smart mouth", you mean those instances where instructions are being given, which are in excess of your authority or which would be in violation of regulations and a sharp PV2 called you on it, the best thing you can do is own the mistake and correct it. Give them credit for having read and understood the regulation, keeping you from violating it. In all my years of service, the most respect I ever got from subordinates was when they saw I was able to own up to a mistake, rather than going on a power trip.
If a SM is disregarding lawful instructions, cite the regulations giving you the authority to give those instructions and the potential administrative/punitive/legal consequences for failing to carry out those instructions.
Show them the regulation. DO NOT tell them to look it up. Nothing will give a firmer impression that you're making it up as you go.
Also, don't try the old BS excuse about "not having the time to explain". If you're in garrison, you have the time. If you're not in garrison, neither of you should've made it that far, without this being understood. You've been placed in a position of leadership. Lead.
If, after these things have been thoroughly explained and cited, the behavior persists, call the JAG Office. They're open most weekdays. Have a Legal Specialist describe the lengths (and limits) of your authority to this SM. In fact, it may be a good idea to include the JAG representative at your next Battalion Organizational Day, giving a brief class on this very subject.
If the behavior STILL persists, it's time to start some paperwork. At this point, it cannot be argued that you've given the SM every opportunity to understand their duties and obligations. If they are choosing not to meet those obligations, they belong some place else.
Now, if by "smart mouth", you mean those instances where instructions are being given, which are in excess of your authority or which would be in violation of regulations and a sharp PV2 called you on it, the best thing you can do is own the mistake and correct it. Give them credit for having read and understood the regulation, keeping you from violating it. In all my years of service, the most respect I ever got from subordinates was when they saw I was able to own up to a mistake, rather than going on a power trip.
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Why would you allow a PVT to run thier mouth or think they have the right to talk back? Light that PVT up and let them know YOU are in charge. But as a senior E5 you should already know that.
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I would get creative with him and his battles. I might be i sensitive but at that point I wouldn't care. If he's gonna go suicidal and/or have issues with following lawful commands how the hecl do you think he is going to behave underfire? Chances ate he is going to get his battles killed. I'd rather correct it in a creative way that either pushes him over so that I can ship him home or he stops being a f---face and does as he is told.
As for creativity...if we are back at home I might make him and his battles tale a hill and put up an 0e-254 while under fire from op4. I'd ask the rest of the platoon to play op4. Then tell him he doesn't get to go home till one of two conditions ate met... he takes the hill, raises said antenna or the sun goes down. Then he gets to do it again the next day for 5 days in a row. See how long he mouths off after that.
As for creativity...if we are back at home I might make him and his battles tale a hill and put up an 0e-254 while under fire from op4. I'd ask the rest of the platoon to play op4. Then tell him he doesn't get to go home till one of two conditions ate met... he takes the hill, raises said antenna or the sun goes down. Then he gets to do it again the next day for 5 days in a row. See how long he mouths off after that.
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... we're gonna have FUN. "PVT F---face what is your problem? Don't like following orders eh? You say your an individual eh? Well tell that to your buddies to your left and your right. Cause they are your new best battle buddies. And everytime you f--- up they are foing to fireman cary you to your next location where they and you will complete what ever task I ask of you. Don't make me give you more best buddies. Cause I when it reaches six I'll let them counsel you as they see fit."
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Attitude reflects leadership.... if a troop feels he can act out in such a manor and show complete lack of respect for orders given then problem is most likely starring you in the face through the mirror. I put e4 on and was assigned 5 troops. One of these troops doing his job on a nuke base
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I had a private smartmouth embarrass me once in a training class after I just made buck sergeant. I had been out of the field army for a while on special assignment and my NBC skills were lacking. Hence the embarrassment. A week or so later, the private smartmouth found himself in a drunken pickle and in violation of post rules. Suddenly, he realized the error of his ways. He learned a valuable lesson about Karma.
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