Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Insubordination toward an office or NCO is an UCMJ article 15 offence. I feel there are a number of ways that this could be handles; straight away go the article 15 route, if this is a habitual response to an NCO or officer. Depending on the situation i.e. at first time offence, my preference would be first to handle a verbal reprimand in private or a written reprimand depending on the severity and lastly an article 15. I maybe over simplifying the process, I am just trying to make the point that insubordination cannot be tolerated.
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Things sure have changed since my military days. During early Vietnam era 62 to 66 The shithead at least would be assigned every crap detail I could find. And in between I would see he pulled Guard detail and got PTd damn near to death. If that didn’t straighten him out there was always arrival 15 or the stockade.
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First I retired in 2013. When I was put in charge of a new section, I would wrestle the biggest soldier (all in fun). I had no issues losing skin on black top, my goal was winning. That set a standard for my toughness. Then I took a list of their issues and fixed what I could. I was hard on them and they knew it, but I was clear with what I expected of them. I set the example for them to follow, and took care of them when I could.
To the Pvt mouthing, I would have chewed and smoked the hole section. My section would correct him on their own. If that does not work then you counsel amd inform the individual of their failures.
Then last I checked, UCMJ states that you may physically aid a soldier to follow your orders. That does not mean beat them, be creative and teach a lesson.
Sadly in reallity, you have to counsel, counsel, counsel and pray officers follow through.
To the Pvt mouthing, I would have chewed and smoked the hole section. My section would correct him on their own. If that does not work then you counsel amd inform the individual of their failures.
Then last I checked, UCMJ states that you may physically aid a soldier to follow your orders. That does not mean beat them, be creative and teach a lesson.
Sadly in reallity, you have to counsel, counsel, counsel and pray officers follow through.
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Insubordinate, should be dressed down by 1st. Sargent or officer in charge. Given extra duty and put on notice of future disablement if attitude does not improve.
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Lesson #1
You are in the motor pool on Friday, 1630 hours for closeout formation. Your platoon sergeant tells you to sweep the line prior to release. You salute him sharply, about face to your squad, and tell Jones to grab a broom and sweep the line. Jones says "nope, I wont do it" Jones, I'm giving you a lawful directive to sweep the line. Jones say no and you can't make me. So what, squad leader, do you do?
Two basic responsibilities for the NCO is the welfare of my soldiers and accomplishing the mission, remember....
Okay you say, Miller, grab the broom and sweep the line. Squad, you assist and when complete I'll see you for PT on Monday. Jones, my office now. We must discuss your behavior. of course you know the DA4856 and so on.....maybe a recommendation for a BAR or whatever. So....the line was swept. Mission accomplished. And you attempt to preserve Jones's record with discipline.
I hope my spelling is proper. I learned this a long time ago from an old CSM with like 33 years in our Army. So don't forget it troop. You can do both if you think before planting foot in ass! God bless the troopers.
You are in the motor pool on Friday, 1630 hours for closeout formation. Your platoon sergeant tells you to sweep the line prior to release. You salute him sharply, about face to your squad, and tell Jones to grab a broom and sweep the line. Jones says "nope, I wont do it" Jones, I'm giving you a lawful directive to sweep the line. Jones say no and you can't make me. So what, squad leader, do you do?
Two basic responsibilities for the NCO is the welfare of my soldiers and accomplishing the mission, remember....
Okay you say, Miller, grab the broom and sweep the line. Squad, you assist and when complete I'll see you for PT on Monday. Jones, my office now. We must discuss your behavior. of course you know the DA4856 and so on.....maybe a recommendation for a BAR or whatever. So....the line was swept. Mission accomplished. And you attempt to preserve Jones's record with discipline.
I hope my spelling is proper. I learned this a long time ago from an old CSM with like 33 years in our Army. So don't forget it troop. You can do both if you think before planting foot in ass! God bless the troopers.
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1. As the Senior Leader in the situation, don't be drawn into the punk's BS. Calm will win.
2. At first actual refusal by Pvt Snuffy, ask solider if he/she is disobeying a lawful order from an NCO.
3. My guess is Pvt will comply to directive. Prepare written counseling for Private, present prior to COB, same day, with Squad Leader present. Inform 1SG/Pltt. Sgt. of resolution. Regardless of compliance with original directive
If Pvt really derails, at step 3. it's into the office we go. Immediate written counseling statement with UCMJ action pending bullet point. Do this part correctly Leaders! JAG throws out lots of Art 15's because first line leaders don't get it right. This is a teachable moment for the next NCOPD/OPD.
This situation has/will happen to every leader in every branch at some point. Happened to me.
2. At first actual refusal by Pvt Snuffy, ask solider if he/she is disobeying a lawful order from an NCO.
3. My guess is Pvt will comply to directive. Prepare written counseling for Private, present prior to COB, same day, with Squad Leader present. Inform 1SG/Pltt. Sgt. of resolution. Regardless of compliance with original directive
If Pvt really derails, at step 3. it's into the office we go. Immediate written counseling statement with UCMJ action pending bullet point. Do this part correctly Leaders! JAG throws out lots of Art 15's because first line leaders don't get it right. This is a teachable moment for the next NCOPD/OPD.
This situation has/will happen to every leader in every branch at some point. Happened to me.
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he would be subjected to the decision of the commander and made an example to his peers
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An reprimand in writing should change his behavior. If not an Article 15 in his military records will certainly get his attention.
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I would call the entire group to attention and tell them this: "... any organization is only as good as its weakest link. No one gets to choose what they will or will not do in this unit. The individual in question, is placed on restriction and will be referred for violations of the UCMJ for refusing a direct order. However, in the interim, someone else in this unit will now have to do his job in addition to their own. Thus lowering the Combat efficiency of the unit. You can all think about that and ask yourself one question: "... Why should he ignore orders and think of himself first - why we have to take up the slack..." Because, in Combat, -the soldier that refuses to do his job gets others killed.
Just remember that "... Duty is the absence of self..."
Just remember that "... Duty is the absence of self..."
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Back in the 70’s we had conex counseling for these types of situations. One trio behind the conex and your attitude was changed permently. With all the snowflakes today, maybe it’s time to brink that type of motivational practice back.
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Depends on what decade. 1980's lay him the fuck out with a good punch and inform him as to the error of his ways as he is laying on the ground. Now a days I guess charge him with disrespect and start a paper trail. One punch did me a world of good 30 years ago, But times have changed.
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A two week "visit" at Charlie's Chicken Farm does wonders for attitude adjustments.
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Let's see here......Most American kids since the 1990s have been brought-up in homes where there is no discipline, no value systems taught, NO RESPECT, no accountability and no REAL Role Models. The school systems & media in this country then perpetuate this with all of their "flowery touchy-feely don't offend or traumatize the kid" crapolla that gives the green light for students / young people to do & say what they like without any consequences (with the exception of saying the word: "Gun or fashioning a Pop-Tart to look like a pistol" which results in everybody running around like Chicken-Littles that results in the kid getting kicked-out of school with a felony record and / or ending up in prison). PLUS.....and I know this might "offend some here".... but today's culture in the USA glamorizes and glorifies the gang-banger culture and everything that it stands at every level & facet of culture & society which also includes bashing and demonizing anyone or anything that represents Law Enforcement and Military ie "Structured Environments and Career Fields" that require being a Disciplined Professional. So in-light of what I stated...Do The Math. We now live in a country where society / culture dictates that the student is smarter than the Teacher and the recruit is more experienced than the Drill Sergeant.
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In the old days it would be a wall-to-wall "counseling" session, with the high possibility that he would require a visit to the base clinic, afterwards.
But today I would still not tolerate the disrespect, or the refusal to follow orders. I would make it clear that he didn't have an option, and if he continued to refuse to obey orders he could count on an Article 15, kiss his single stripe goodbye, and I MIGHT be kind enough to let him call his future dependapotomus and tell her that he would not be able to come visit her for the next 2-4 weeks, because he's going to be on extra duty until he readjusted his attitude.
But today I would still not tolerate the disrespect, or the refusal to follow orders. I would make it clear that he didn't have an option, and if he continued to refuse to obey orders he could count on an Article 15, kiss his single stripe goodbye, and I MIGHT be kind enough to let him call his future dependapotomus and tell her that he would not be able to come visit her for the next 2-4 weeks, because he's going to be on extra duty until he readjusted his attitude.
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Drop him and make him the first for extra duty until he shuts up. After that, kick him to HHB where they can put him on the gate or in the kitchen permanently.
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Personally, I've always like Sun Tzu's method -- first, be sure the soldier understood the order. Second, once you are sure the soldier understands, if they still refuse to obey -- summary execution. (sigh) Those were the days!
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Give the Team leader the opportunity to resolve the issue, then the Squad leader. If not, it's up to the PSG to make the choice, Court Martial or watch the platoon implode. just my old timers humble opinion.
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A swift throat punch should solve the problem. If the PV2 still remains recalcitrant, keep them square in the nuts...or camel toe
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I would simply tell them. If you can't make it in the billion dollar military system, I will make it my mission to make sure you make it in the million dollar prison system. This is not a democracy, that's what you are defending, however...you are defending it through a dictatorship....and that would be though me and under the people I represent up the food chain...don't test the system, you'll lose
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