Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
I would tell him he either obeys the order or I will write him up for insubordination, he has his choice. I witnessed an Airman in my last Squadron smart off with a Major. He didn't stay around very long.
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All this calmly discuss, praise in public, correct in private is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Insubordination in formation ain't something to accept. I don't give a fat rats ass if his whole family just up and died, this little fucker is going down in flames, right out in front of God and everybody.
Step 1. In a loud, clear voice, say the following: You must be out of your rabid assed mind. I hope you heal quick, because I'm gonna rip your spine out through your mouth.
Step 2. Proceed to make the rest of his tenure in my Army short and completely miserable.
Step 3. Ask who's next?
Step 1. In a loud, clear voice, say the following: You must be out of your rabid assed mind. I hope you heal quick, because I'm gonna rip your spine out through your mouth.
Step 2. Proceed to make the rest of his tenure in my Army short and completely miserable.
Step 3. Ask who's next?
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I’m confused as to if this is a serious question? Seems straight forward between 1 of 2 options. 1. Smoke him/her. Or 2. Counsel the individual for disrespect let the soldier understand that they joined the army. In the army it’s rgr, tracking, I’ll get it done. People tend to straighten up when they start having time taken away and if they don’t then it’s a fast track out of the army.
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Here we go, based on past experience, "Everyone fall out, minus the doofus who just exhibited sheer stupidity in this formation". I've had my fair share of learning compassion for others, but you must uphold your authority at all times. I usually win their heart over after the extra duty earned and they become much better soldiers after the disciplinary actions that follow. I made my own share of mistakes as a private. Let's promote success and not failure and build a very strong unified team, but God forbid after you shit in your pants and learn from your mistakes. ;-)
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simple.. 10 count pushups. put a coin under his nose. when the coin went under water. he could stop. or switch pushup. 8 count body builders. or switch to fludder kicks.. I was in Reon. Grunts handle their own.
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To be honest, I never had that problem during my active duty; if my corpsmen got a bit out of line, I took them aside and had a "chat" with them in private, and the problem was resolved. However, that was 50 yrs ago and a DIFFERENT caliber of young men and women. Today's kids are so generally raised to believe they rule that it would be an entirely different situation. I honestly don't know how you'd deal with it without some seriously punitive action.
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Well, I was in the U.S. Army back in 1955 - 58 and I NEVER heard any of our low ranking guys ever question the authority or refuse an order from our NCO’s or even just a grade above them. Also, back then, an E2 was just one grade BELOW a Pfc. Things certainly must have changed in our Military in the last 60 plus years.
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Tell him he should have joined the Airforce. The rest of the military has obey commands or suffer the consequences.!
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How I respond and what I do will largely depend on my own impression of the "fresh E2" in question. How has this soldier behaved in the recent past and is this in contradiction to his/her behavior today? Put simply, otherwise sound persons can have off days; especially if there have been recent family emergencies, problems with spouse, legal/financial problems, substance abuse, etc.
I would look for tell-tale signs, expressions, etc., to suggest high degree of stress; though this would be relatively short in duration. What about the general physical appearance of this soldier? Is he/she properly in uniform, taking "pride" in own appearance? Or is he/she disheveled, with questionable hygiene? Am I aware of mental illness on the part of this recruit? Is there potentially a physical cause to such behavior?
I don't want to give the wrong impression. Considerable amount of time was spent by trained professionals (DI's, etc.,) teaching this young E2 regarding the importance of discipline and the obeying of lawful orders. The problem isn't likely to be one of comprehension, but something that is more "personal."
Actual example: While serving as a Sergeant/E5, I knew a young man who was a fairly stand-up guy, but needed improvement in the maturity and "filtering" department. He was simple in his temperament and while he could be "smart" in often funny ways, he did what he was told and worked hard and diligently in the process. In time, and especially as he matured as a person, I felt he would make a fairly decent NCO. (Something I spoke to him about on more than few occasions.) I gave feedback (good or bad) in positive ways, basically trying to be a mentor.
In one way or another, this young E3 managed to get on the radar of a "difficult" Major, and to make matters worse, the Major had a somewhat volatile and abrasive personality/style and it just so happened that this particular E3 outright disliked the Major (along with most everyone else who was familiar with the Major!)
One particular day, hearing loud conversation and shouting coming from a large office area, I immediately walked in, (after all, this is what we NCO's do!) There was the young PFC standing there, towering over the Major, while the Major was shouting at him, asking him if he was refusing to obey a direct order! From the facial expressions of the young E3, I could see that he was fairly stressed and was getting angry to boot. I immediately shouted, "PFC ------- Come to attention!" (My reasoning was that this was especially an NCO matter and one that could easily be corrected without ruining the potential career of a young recruit.)
Immediately the young PFC came to attention and became quiet. Well, this made me a proverbial lightning-rod for the Major's anger and he immediately began to hammer on me! I came to attention myself, as I gave a hard look at the PFC. (The young PFC understood what I was doing and changed his demeanor immediately.) I simply took what the Major was dishing out and when asked why I had interfered, I simply replied calmly that I was doing my job as an NCO.
I'm not sure how long the shouting by the Major continued, but he eventually grew tired and walked away, but not before telling me that I was in serious trouble! I had to meet with our Colonel, and the Sergeant Major, and gave them my impression of what was taking place and why I stepped in to stop the train-wreck, before a young man's career could be derailed. Both were aware of the somewhat "challenging" demeanor of the Major and they knew the young man in question as well. I was told that there was no harm in an NCO trying to do his duty and that they would have a "talk" with the Major and to just stay out of his way for the next week-or-two...
This was the end of the matter and I definitely had a "talk" with the PFC in question. On the positive side, the incidence served as a wake-up call for the PFC and he was more mature as a consequence. He sincerely apologized to me and told me that he was scared that I would get "busted down," due to his ignorance. (I gave him the same spiel I got about staying out of the Majors way and he promised he would do much better from that point on.) As for the other officers and NCO's, they seemed very sympathetic and would even tease me about the incidence, from time-to-time...
I guess what I am saying is that how we react and what we do when faced with insubordination likely involves many variables and we should be careful in general not to needlessly ruin a young persons career when there MAY be understandable "causes" for such behavior to begin with. On the other hand, if the person was always difficult in his/her behavior, ultimately he./she has to decide what outcome is more desirable, do as told or an Article 15 (and possibly a dishonorable discharge down the line!)
Such discretion was often utilized by the nations law enforcement officers some decades back, and likely helped to save the future of many "situationaly-stupid" young kids.
I would look for tell-tale signs, expressions, etc., to suggest high degree of stress; though this would be relatively short in duration. What about the general physical appearance of this soldier? Is he/she properly in uniform, taking "pride" in own appearance? Or is he/she disheveled, with questionable hygiene? Am I aware of mental illness on the part of this recruit? Is there potentially a physical cause to such behavior?
I don't want to give the wrong impression. Considerable amount of time was spent by trained professionals (DI's, etc.,) teaching this young E2 regarding the importance of discipline and the obeying of lawful orders. The problem isn't likely to be one of comprehension, but something that is more "personal."
Actual example: While serving as a Sergeant/E5, I knew a young man who was a fairly stand-up guy, but needed improvement in the maturity and "filtering" department. He was simple in his temperament and while he could be "smart" in often funny ways, he did what he was told and worked hard and diligently in the process. In time, and especially as he matured as a person, I felt he would make a fairly decent NCO. (Something I spoke to him about on more than few occasions.) I gave feedback (good or bad) in positive ways, basically trying to be a mentor.
In one way or another, this young E3 managed to get on the radar of a "difficult" Major, and to make matters worse, the Major had a somewhat volatile and abrasive personality/style and it just so happened that this particular E3 outright disliked the Major (along with most everyone else who was familiar with the Major!)
One particular day, hearing loud conversation and shouting coming from a large office area, I immediately walked in, (after all, this is what we NCO's do!) There was the young PFC standing there, towering over the Major, while the Major was shouting at him, asking him if he was refusing to obey a direct order! From the facial expressions of the young E3, I could see that he was fairly stressed and was getting angry to boot. I immediately shouted, "PFC ------- Come to attention!" (My reasoning was that this was especially an NCO matter and one that could easily be corrected without ruining the potential career of a young recruit.)
Immediately the young PFC came to attention and became quiet. Well, this made me a proverbial lightning-rod for the Major's anger and he immediately began to hammer on me! I came to attention myself, as I gave a hard look at the PFC. (The young PFC understood what I was doing and changed his demeanor immediately.) I simply took what the Major was dishing out and when asked why I had interfered, I simply replied calmly that I was doing my job as an NCO.
I'm not sure how long the shouting by the Major continued, but he eventually grew tired and walked away, but not before telling me that I was in serious trouble! I had to meet with our Colonel, and the Sergeant Major, and gave them my impression of what was taking place and why I stepped in to stop the train-wreck, before a young man's career could be derailed. Both were aware of the somewhat "challenging" demeanor of the Major and they knew the young man in question as well. I was told that there was no harm in an NCO trying to do his duty and that they would have a "talk" with the Major and to just stay out of his way for the next week-or-two...
This was the end of the matter and I definitely had a "talk" with the PFC in question. On the positive side, the incidence served as a wake-up call for the PFC and he was more mature as a consequence. He sincerely apologized to me and told me that he was scared that I would get "busted down," due to his ignorance. (I gave him the same spiel I got about staying out of the Majors way and he promised he would do much better from that point on.) As for the other officers and NCO's, they seemed very sympathetic and would even tease me about the incidence, from time-to-time...
I guess what I am saying is that how we react and what we do when faced with insubordination likely involves many variables and we should be careful in general not to needlessly ruin a young persons career when there MAY be understandable "causes" for such behavior to begin with. On the other hand, if the person was always difficult in his/her behavior, ultimately he./she has to decide what outcome is more desirable, do as told or an Article 15 (and possibly a dishonorable discharge down the line!)
Such discretion was often utilized by the nations law enforcement officers some decades back, and likely helped to save the future of many "situationaly-stupid" young kids.
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Staying in a cool but not icy detachment, I'd say "I'm not pissed, because it concerns me to see that some thing has so seriously upset you that you would risk arrest & losing all your pay for months by acting like this. You can throw away everything you went thru to get here, or you can step aside & tell me about it, see what I might find you to help. What'll it be?
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