Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
I would take the E2 aside after I released the rest of the detail.. And inform him of the dangers of a court martial for insubordination. If he still insisted that I should stick it where the son didn't shine I would escort him to the brig and let him decide which was worse.
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You really don't want to know. It would involve his team leader and the sm also. By themselves with me. I know how I was corrected as a young sm.
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Still wondering how old posts are recycled in my email. But I agree with Gunny Pepper. The PFC's indiscretions must be hammered with military precision. This is the military, not Google. There is no room for such insolence, in garrison or on the battlefield. To be sure, failure to promptly and respectfully obey lawful orders in garrison, and failure to stamp it out swiftly, will translate to lives lost on the battlefield. Mission accomplishment depends on high discipline and swift compliance with orders (both the letter and the intent). Insubordination cannot be tolerated.
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release the rest of the formation to carry out their assignments --- then take the smartass into my office and have him stand there while I fill out the discharge forms for an undesirable discharge which is other than HONORABLE then have him sign the forms --- as a 1st SGT this method worked well for me several times --- the look on their faces was great "SHOCK" they thought there was nothing I could to them ----- NOT!!!!!! A FAST TURN AROUND IN THEIR ATTITUDES!!!
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Everybody wants to point fingers at the E-2, but maybe the E-5 needs to work on his command presence. I have been out a while so somethings may have changed. But we always had the mentality to not let our leaders down.
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Being USMC , old school ( 1953 to 1975 ) I would him out of ranks, took him behind the barracks for a little one on one, ending up with him removing his head from his rectum...I'm not cut out for todays military
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This Pvt would end up on every shit detail I could find. His Team Leader would be right there with him supervising. One or both of them would adjust their attitude rather quickly. If it’s just one guy he has a problem. If it’s more than one the SL has a problem. Where is the PSG in all of this? The next time he refused a lawful order I would park his sorry ass in front of the commander. When I was a PSG I would give my NCO’s a 3 day weekend. I would “replace” them for a day with E3’s or E4’s. I would go over First call, formations, the training schedule, etc a few days beforehand. Almost without fail, they were glad to see their SL and TL back among them. It usually adjusted attitudes. And respect
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I'd let the NCOs take care of it, but you can be sure the NCOs and I would have words about keeping me informed.
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Fifty years ago, the "counseling" done by us NCOs was more physical, in the form of 'extra care and maintenance of military properties' and/or something more physical.
Once an officer witnessed a NY National Guardsmen give me some lip. Before I could 'counsel' this Private, the officer wanted to use the UCMJ.
Our C.O. gave him a choice of Art 15 or Court Martial. The now not-so-bold Private chose Art 15.
There was an upcoming holiday weekend and these A.I.T. trainees were being allowed passes.
This Private was from a wealthy family and said he wasn't concerned about having Forfeiture of Pay, etc.
Instead, the C.O. gave him a Dutch uncle ass-chewing, cancelled his pass, and assigned him 'extra care and maintenance, etc.
Once an officer witnessed a NY National Guardsmen give me some lip. Before I could 'counsel' this Private, the officer wanted to use the UCMJ.
Our C.O. gave him a choice of Art 15 or Court Martial. The now not-so-bold Private chose Art 15.
There was an upcoming holiday weekend and these A.I.T. trainees were being allowed passes.
This Private was from a wealthy family and said he wasn't concerned about having Forfeiture of Pay, etc.
Instead, the C.O. gave him a Dutch uncle ass-chewing, cancelled his pass, and assigned him 'extra care and maintenance, etc.
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Send his ass to the pit for a few hours... that or ahitnag gets every detail until he gets out
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I would immediately take him to the C.O. and ensure he was charged with insubordination and failure to follow orders. You might also go for conduct unbecoming. I'm sure a reduction in rank, a monetary penalty and a little time in confinement wouldn't hurt either.
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Drop the whole formation, 50 plus push ups, and let the soldiers deal with him or her, why should an NCO always do the dirty work..Peer pressure is a B****
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I'd tell the E-2 to stand at "parade rest" and remain at that position every time they address me. In the mean time I'd get inventive for some corrective training to help young joker remember how the pecking order works. Maybe even give a class on rank structure to their teammates. Yelling doesn't work on every individual but when they know there is a document describing their behavior that usually gets their attention. Does this E-2 get counselled a monthly performance by chance?
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It's been a long time since I was in, but my answer is the same as both enlisted and an officer. I go tell the Gunny. The problem goes away. I don't ask, he don't tell. The problem just goes away.
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When I first joined in the late 70's, closed door wall-to-wall counseling was in use for the most severe cases of a repetitive nature. Spontaneous cases like above would guarantee shit detail for a week or more until re-education was established. Today a counseling statement and possible UCMJ non=judicial punishment would be in order if the soldier does not improve his attitude. One thing for sure, never make a threat to the soldier you can't carry out. Sure way to lose credibility.
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