Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 3697
Squad Atention, half right face...Private Snuffy drop...I will not stand for insubordination period. You will execute my orders and never question my decisions period. Any questions??? Private Snuffy recover. Squad half left face. Fall out... Private Snuffy at ease, this kind of negative attitude will not be tolerated, further disrespect can and will be grounds for an Article-15. Now do as I say! Dismiss...
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I was an E-6 in an Army where most Private’s were there because they were drafted, if you let them get under your skin they owned you. Remove him from your formation and have him stand at ease facing a wall in a corner where he has to turn around to see anything. Move your formation far enough away that he can’t hear wahat you are saying. Go about your duty, check on him occasionally. Rinse, repeat
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The corps is different from when I was in, now I would start the paperwork to modify their behavior. If that doesn't work soon, they will be a civilian flipping burgers wishing they would have made a different decision.
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I’m reading this question and I can’t think of any response. In my time in the military, beginning in 1963, the Army, that would have been unthinkable. I have a question, is this common behavior or uncommon? Quality of recruits, quality of NCOs or other superiors? I spent three years as an AF basic training instructor, the mid to late 80’s. From minute one the trainees understood this was the USAF and not a debating society.
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You don't want to know...
They would be in for "extra duty" until they couldn't walk & then some diagnostic PT.
They would be in for "extra duty" until they couldn't walk & then some diagnostic PT.
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I can see every a volunteer for every crap detail coming down the pike. Possible restriction, and escalating punishment for repeat offences.
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I tell them "SA/FA, etc. Smith, remain after the Division is dismissed and we will talk about this." I would then have a discussion with the wayward Seaman/Fireman about who assigns work and how it is not a choice. If the E-2 does not know HOW to accomplish the task assigned, that is one thing, we can assign a qualified person to train them and sign them off as appropriate (which will also go back to the assignment in the first place, ensure you assign qualified people to tasks). If they are trained and qualified to the task notify them that they have finite time to complete it and liberty call does not commence until task completion. I always stayed after liberty call with an individual that drug their feet if such happened. They usually got the hint that they WERE going to do the work assigned, and that I wasn't going to let them go on liberty until they did. I had this happen several times with an E-4 when I was an E-6.
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I welcome great, well-thought-out questions and I welcome curiosity, but I will not tolerate smart mouths in the middle of my formations, as a leader.
Generally, smart mouths are those soldiers who want to establish their knowledge, abilities and ideas ahead of others. However, there is a proper time and place for everything; there is an established chain of communication to bring forward brilliance and well-constructed ideas and, this established line of communication doesn't begin by being a smart mouth in my formations. This must be expressed without delay to the Team/Section/Squad leaders and platoon sergeants in the presence of the 1SG. Set the rules right from the outset.
Generally, smart mouths are those soldiers who want to establish their knowledge, abilities and ideas ahead of others. However, there is a proper time and place for everything; there is an established chain of communication to bring forward brilliance and well-constructed ideas and, this established line of communication doesn't begin by being a smart mouth in my formations. This must be expressed without delay to the Team/Section/Squad leaders and platoon sergeants in the presence of the 1SG. Set the rules right from the outset.
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I had a situation like this one. The E2 is smart mouthing for sure. First drop and give me 20 push ups. Then after all the others are dismissed I took that E2 to my office and asked them why they felt they had the right to refuse the assignment. The E2 said something like I can't do that work as i have not been trained. I said go with this other soldier and he will train you. After training and you refuse again you will be doing extra duty which you do now want to do. Now go and do the work.
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First been there and handled it. Now how I handled it. As a senior SERGEANT this becomes a question of respect not just disobedience and MUST be corrected. My first words in front of my soldiers is “ what the f#?! Is your major malfunction private?” This will demonstrate my authority in front of the soldiers and give him a chance to correct himself in front of everyone. Now some people do not get the hint. That’s when I send everyone else to do the assigned jobs. Then I will lock him up at parade rest and I will explain what is about to happen. He can either give me a reasonable explanation, receive corrective training, or we can write it down and begin the process to be out of the army. Now I have gotten responses where I was in the wrong and he did have a legitimate reason then it is your best judgment. I normally did not pursue the matter and after explaining how we were both in the wrong and how to handle this situation in the future we moved on. That’s wait till everyone else leaves and catch me after and explain the issue. This earns respect from everyone because you look fair and impartial. If on the other hand the reason is BS well we will decide on which corrective training. Now I explain that if I smoke him this will not allow further punishment but it is going to get very uncomfortable or he can continue to be disrespectful and in that case the army doesn’t need him and I will start the process to get him involuntarily separated from the military. Explain the process. Most of them choose smoking. At a minimum this will take an hour. I carried a tank ball bearing for such times. After I was done most could not left their arms past shoulder height, their legs were like noodles, and there were sweat stains on the ground. It has to last and it has to be enough so when he talks about it others do not want to do the same. Remember to strive to be fair and impartial, do not allow it to get personal stay come and in control. Do not raise your voice. I hope this helps.
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Seems pretty simple. After everyone falls out put this E2 in the front leaning rest. While he/she is there explain that there is a time and place for discussion and this was not one of them.
As a GOOD leader, you will then take this E2 to a private area and figure out why they feel the way they do and see if the problem is deeper rooted to something ie marital issues, financial issues, depression. Maybe this E2 feels like they are being neglected by leadership. Explain to them that they CANNOT and WILL not disrespect you in front of your subordinates and if it happens again they will feel the weight of a chapter packet come down on them very quickly.
As a leader it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that your troops are being taken care of and it is YOUR responsibility to fix their issues. The second that you start toting your rank around like it’s a battle axe is the second that you lose the faith and respect of your troops. Be the leader you wanted to have when you were coming up.
As a GOOD leader, you will then take this E2 to a private area and figure out why they feel the way they do and see if the problem is deeper rooted to something ie marital issues, financial issues, depression. Maybe this E2 feels like they are being neglected by leadership. Explain to them that they CANNOT and WILL not disrespect you in front of your subordinates and if it happens again they will feel the weight of a chapter packet come down on them very quickly.
As a leader it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that your troops are being taken care of and it is YOUR responsibility to fix their issues. The second that you start toting your rank around like it’s a battle axe is the second that you lose the faith and respect of your troops. Be the leader you wanted to have when you were coming up.
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Suspended Profile
E5, so this is a squad, teams A and B? OR are you acting PSG?
ATTENTION, HALF RIGHT, FACE, BENDS AND MOTHERFUCKERS BEGIN, I count the cadence, you count the reps, 1, 2, 3, 4 1 Sargeant!(continue as needed)
Now that the entire group understands PFC/PV2/Squid Rating 2 is a dickhead and caused the entire group to get bent, we start over. Private Shitbird, you will clean the heads/latrines, regular work is then handed out to the rest of the squad/platoon. If it is one peckerhead in a squad, the entire squad remains to be bent. There will be no weak links in any squad, period because weak links get people hurt or killed in theater. Pvt Shitbir either learns or receives multiple statements(army is 4856) on performance, even though the reward for successes is given, and positive or negative punishment for infractions is received, he/she is chaptered out for Pattern of Misconduct, or Failure to Adapt.
If you are a good NCO this little bit of BS will go away fast as both the team and you correct this shitbird to become a good GI and commit to stellar performance
ATTENTION, HALF RIGHT, FACE, BENDS AND MOTHERFUCKERS BEGIN, I count the cadence, you count the reps, 1, 2, 3, 4 1 Sargeant!(continue as needed)
Now that the entire group understands PFC/PV2/Squid Rating 2 is a dickhead and caused the entire group to get bent, we start over. Private Shitbird, you will clean the heads/latrines, regular work is then handed out to the rest of the squad/platoon. If it is one peckerhead in a squad, the entire squad remains to be bent. There will be no weak links in any squad, period because weak links get people hurt or killed in theater. Pvt Shitbir either learns or receives multiple statements(army is 4856) on performance, even though the reward for successes is given, and positive or negative punishment for infractions is received, he/she is chaptered out for Pattern of Misconduct, or Failure to Adapt.
If you are a good NCO this little bit of BS will go away fast as both the team and you correct this shitbird to become a good GI and commit to stellar performance
I'm going to let him know his role! There is a chain of command and what is expected of him. While saying all that he is in the front lean and rest position. There is a reason you are a E-5 and he is an E-2!
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In the Navy? After Quarters, take the E-2 to the Department's CPO.
It's the CPO's Duty to decide upon displinary actions.
It's the CPO's Duty to decide upon displinary actions.
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I'd pull him out of formation and get him counseled. If that one fails, time for re-training. Military personnel are not to pick what or which tasks given they will do. Discipline must prevail in the ranks otherwise it would be a clusterf**k and others will follow. Unacceptable!!
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Suspended Profile
This is one issue I disliked in Army compared to my time in the Marine Corps article 15 his ass. This was an on going issue in the Army because most units wouldn’t put paper on Soldiers they felt entitled. If I disrespected my Gunny in the Corps it would be straight to office hours article 15. You have issues with these kids and you better hammer one or two with 30/30 and that crap will end butt cold in a unit. The Army has to start using a stronger hand with some of these troops.
See me in my shack immediately after quarters. That lad was about to receive some special counseling..
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Maybe he is just testing the water and tries to challenge your authority. Or he is just blunt and stupid. You need to understand his purpose behind his behavior. Is he trying to work his way out of the Army? Obeying lawful order is the basic Soldier skill. I have had several Soldiers like that in the past. To be honest it is no fun dealing with the disobedient Soldier. You need to counsel him and let him know what is right and wrong. My previous Soldier always talked back to me and challenged my authority as a team leader. He was a PVT at the time. I smoked him during PT session, followed by a few other smoking sessions and counseling. It worked pretty well.
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