Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Simple, it’s a telling it’s a NJP, Loss of rank, money and restrictions. Your E3 on below you get the shitty jobs, get busted s rank your doomed to shit jobs forever. Then the The company Gunny takes it from there.
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First have their pass privileges revoked and place them on extra training. Next on every field training exercise volunteer them to assist both the Supply Sergeant and volunteer them for KP if the Mess Sergeant actually sets up in the field. Then the motor pool can alway use extra hands on details, am I kind of getting the point across?
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First a good NCO doesn’t berate a soldier in front of his comrades. He should pull him aside after formation and see what problem he has following orders. I believe it starts in the home. If a person doesn’t respect their parents and gets away with it then it can be an issue in a structured environment..
When I went to Aeroscout school at “mother Rucker” I was singled out as not only the highest rank, but I had a few years over my classmates. Also when I was I. Flight Medic School I was selected again as the class leader. I became to realize the young troops of today were streetwise, and knew how to work the system so I had to keep a close eye on them so I wouldn't get “ghosted.”
I can also remember when they handed out “stress cards” to the soldiers. It was like a get out of jail free” card. I’m not sure if that was an Army wide thing or at a unit level.
Personally, as a good NCO, I would have counseled him and then if that didn’t work, escalated it up the chain of command.
There are just some soldiers who cannot and will not take orders because of the way they were raised. Which leads me to say if “they can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen.” Show them the door and don’t let it hit them in the ass.
The military isn’t for everyone and it is what you make it.
When I went to Aeroscout school at “mother Rucker” I was singled out as not only the highest rank, but I had a few years over my classmates. Also when I was I. Flight Medic School I was selected again as the class leader. I became to realize the young troops of today were streetwise, and knew how to work the system so I had to keep a close eye on them so I wouldn't get “ghosted.”
I can also remember when they handed out “stress cards” to the soldiers. It was like a get out of jail free” card. I’m not sure if that was an Army wide thing or at a unit level.
Personally, as a good NCO, I would have counseled him and then if that didn’t work, escalated it up the chain of command.
There are just some soldiers who cannot and will not take orders because of the way they were raised. Which leads me to say if “they can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen.” Show them the door and don’t let it hit them in the ass.
The military isn’t for everyone and it is what you make it.
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You calmly tell him that he will do as "requested" (ordered) or find himself doing something a lot more difficult for a lot longer time. Discipline and clear lines of authority are essential. [This reads, "a fresh E2" and then "They blatantly complain...], is this woke BS?]
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I would show junior the error of his ways by showing him a job that sucks way worse than the one he was assigned, then top it off with a corrective counseling session. I also might tell them about old school when you could catch an ass kicking for that.
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Losing some of his pay would also make his think twice about mouthing off to his superior
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I spent my first 5 years in the 82nd in the Infantry, then went to SFAS, Qcourse, and the remaining 15 years at Group, and as an Instructor at SWC.
In my career, I've seen everything from toxic leadership and hazing, to piss poor leadership, and everything in between.
One thing for certain is that the overall quality of soldiers has diminished, soldiers think the Army is a democracy, and that orders, duties, and responsibilities are suggestions and up for debate.
The above question just didn't happen, or was an absolute rarity when i joined. When it did happen, it was dealt with harshly and without hesitation. Soldiers new thier place in the pecking order, and for the most part everyone kept each other in line. I've seen my fair share of "wall to wall counselings", and tops being removed by leadership with a subsequent trip to the woodbine, if the subordinate soldier wanted to take it there. That's the way it was in the Infantry.
In SF, the majority of the team are E-6 and above, more mature, and the roles we play are completely different on the ODA. With a group of type A personalities, there is plenty of banter, but rank is respected. Cross the line, and it's big boy rules. Big boy rules are great until you realize big boy repercussions come with that.
It seems in the last few years military bearing does not exist, and the kinder more gentile Army has been taken to far.The Army is a war fighting unit, just off a 20 year 2 front war. The lessons learned from this should show that quality leadership leads the way, but the right soldiers that understand thier role in the mix is equally important.
A soldier that behaves in this manner is a problem. The question becomes is the behavior stemming from piss poor leadership, who has created an environment where the soldier feels like they are nothing, and are now lashing out, or is this just a bad apple that needs to be plucked from the tree before thier cancerous behavior spreads throughout the formation.
Ultimately the soldier needs to be pulled out of formation, and the core of the issue needs to be brought to light. If it's a product of leadership failures, Command needs to immediately correct the issue. If this is just a bad apple, a paper trail needs to be created so they can be removed from the force.
DOL
Chris sends.
In my career, I've seen everything from toxic leadership and hazing, to piss poor leadership, and everything in between.
One thing for certain is that the overall quality of soldiers has diminished, soldiers think the Army is a democracy, and that orders, duties, and responsibilities are suggestions and up for debate.
The above question just didn't happen, or was an absolute rarity when i joined. When it did happen, it was dealt with harshly and without hesitation. Soldiers new thier place in the pecking order, and for the most part everyone kept each other in line. I've seen my fair share of "wall to wall counselings", and tops being removed by leadership with a subsequent trip to the woodbine, if the subordinate soldier wanted to take it there. That's the way it was in the Infantry.
In SF, the majority of the team are E-6 and above, more mature, and the roles we play are completely different on the ODA. With a group of type A personalities, there is plenty of banter, but rank is respected. Cross the line, and it's big boy rules. Big boy rules are great until you realize big boy repercussions come with that.
It seems in the last few years military bearing does not exist, and the kinder more gentile Army has been taken to far.The Army is a war fighting unit, just off a 20 year 2 front war. The lessons learned from this should show that quality leadership leads the way, but the right soldiers that understand thier role in the mix is equally important.
A soldier that behaves in this manner is a problem. The question becomes is the behavior stemming from piss poor leadership, who has created an environment where the soldier feels like they are nothing, and are now lashing out, or is this just a bad apple that needs to be plucked from the tree before thier cancerous behavior spreads throughout the formation.
Ultimately the soldier needs to be pulled out of formation, and the core of the issue needs to be brought to light. If it's a product of leadership failures, Command needs to immediately correct the issue. If this is just a bad apple, a paper trail needs to be created so they can be removed from the force.
DOL
Chris sends.
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Gunny, for the most part, I am with you on this. But I would like to add that this is direct insubordination and requires just action as well as being made an example of to the rest which I say because making it a point to others that you are not going to put up with that BS only strngthens your stance and authority. The E2 certainly need the ding on their performance report and a trip to the First Shirt. The E2s behaviour is unacceptable and could even constitute UCMJ action, certainly dependent on the lawful order. As for the team leader, if this is a trend, then action there would be needed as well.
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Send him to a Chaplain who was prior service, preferably a prior service enlisted man. Obviously, this soldier has some personal or mental issues.
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PIVIT NEEDS TO RESPECT THE RANK RIGHT? NOW I WAS NOT PERFECT IN THIS REGARD, AS A MATTER OF FACT, MY PLATOON LEADER ESSENTIALLY WALKED UP TO ME WHILST WE WERE POLICING THE PARADE GROUND, AND HE STOPPED APPROXIMATELY A METER AWAY TO SHOW ME A CIG-BUTT. HE SAID PICK THIS UP. I DID A QUARTER LEFT FACE AND CONTINUED AROUND HIM.
I WASN'T NEW IN THIS MAN'S ARMY, AND I ALSO KNEW HE DIDN'T LIKE THIS PFC ALL THAT MUCH. I TOLD HIM TO PICK IT UP, BECAUSE THIS IS OUR PARADE GROUND, NOT JUST MINE. LOL~!
YEAH HE DIDN'T LIKE ME ALL THE MORE GUYS, BUT WHEN IT CAME TO ORDERS FOR THE DAY, I RECEIVED THEM, AND WALKED MY BUTT TO THE MOTOR POOL, LOOKING FORWARD TO FEILD MANEUVERS BACK IN GRAFENWOHR GERMANY.
RANK IS ALWAYS TO BE RESPECTED THOUGH, NOT ONLY FOR THE RECOGNITION, BUT ALSO FOR THE UNIT COHESION. A NEWBIE, OR CRUIT AS WE CALLED THEM SHOULD JUST STFU AND LISTEN, LEARN, AND PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE PART OF A COMBAT M.O.S INFANTRY, ARMOR, OR WHATEVER. ME AND MY FELLOW GUN BUNNY'S WOULD HAVE STRAIGHTENED HIM OUT, FERSURE AND FERGOOD.
I WASN'T NEW IN THIS MAN'S ARMY, AND I ALSO KNEW HE DIDN'T LIKE THIS PFC ALL THAT MUCH. I TOLD HIM TO PICK IT UP, BECAUSE THIS IS OUR PARADE GROUND, NOT JUST MINE. LOL~!
YEAH HE DIDN'T LIKE ME ALL THE MORE GUYS, BUT WHEN IT CAME TO ORDERS FOR THE DAY, I RECEIVED THEM, AND WALKED MY BUTT TO THE MOTOR POOL, LOOKING FORWARD TO FEILD MANEUVERS BACK IN GRAFENWOHR GERMANY.
RANK IS ALWAYS TO BE RESPECTED THOUGH, NOT ONLY FOR THE RECOGNITION, BUT ALSO FOR THE UNIT COHESION. A NEWBIE, OR CRUIT AS WE CALLED THEM SHOULD JUST STFU AND LISTEN, LEARN, AND PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE PART OF A COMBAT M.O.S INFANTRY, ARMOR, OR WHATEVER. ME AND MY FELLOW GUN BUNNY'S WOULD HAVE STRAIGHTENED HIM OUT, FERSURE AND FERGOOD.
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In my day as a DI Field First Sgt. He would have gotten a good tongue lashing and required to give me a minimum of 25 to 50 pushups. On bivouac he would have been required to dig a 6' cube trash pit. My day as a DI was in 1952-53 dealing with 250 draftees per 8 week cycle and I was only an acting Corporal. I got high marks for the company, best on Post two times in 14 months.
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I heard my Dad, a mustang Navy Commander and former enlisted pilot mention this incident. He was the XO of a Squadron based on a Naval Air Station. He had a very junior enlisted man tell him he wasn't going to do something he was assigned to do and Dad asked him what he wanted to do for the day. The man replied "Nuthin!". It. was a sunny summer California day.Now, my Dad had enlisted in the 30's and I know he had held the rank of CPO although he never lost his wartime commission. Dad told him to report back wearing his dress blue uniform (this would have been the late 40's). Dad took the man down to the hangar deck and had him stand midway between the two side f the open end of the hangar, Dad told him he was rot stand at attention (this was in the sun) and salute anyone he needed to salute, but otherwise too do norhing. I head in that same discussion that Dad could see him from his office and did go down below to check on hims and govbe him a head and water break . He said he had no more trouble from him.
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any answer that I give would be based on my "generation" of NCO's and would not be allowed today with these cupcakes! so i'll pass on this question.
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Yes,you must show leadership by dismissing the remaining troops and keeping private dipshit for a private reaming followed by a counseling session that could lead to an article 15 for disobeying orders and insubordination! This isn't the army that cares if you have a date tonight! Uphold the standard!
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I had this occur a few times in my career, one of first thoughts when I hear things like this going on is that it needs to be nipped in the bud. There is a saying that you praise in public and chew them out when possible in private. This applies to not only the service but any job. The few times this occured to me, which it has happened to probably every leader.
I treated each situation based on the person and the issue at hand. Sometimes there may be things going on at home that is causing the SM to act out of the norm. Just remember that we all are human, sometimes when the stress gets tough and you do not have not lived through all the life curve balls it can be tough.
For example I had one SM that smarted off to his Section Chief as we were in the field training when I was the PLT SGT. I overheard this comment, at first the Section Chief handled it what appeared to be fine. But later that day, I made it a point to take time to have a heart to heart chat with this SM.
I made it clear when I spoke with this SM that I was only chatting as a man to man and not in regards to the comments that I witnessed earliered that day. I just wanted to find out if everything was going on fine with them.
I learned by having this man to man chat that his mother had terminal illiness that he just learned about and he was not sure how to cope with everything. It is in these moments that you need to use your resources as a leader to help them cope. Not just to be their to chew them out and reinforce the standards. Granted as a NCO we are expected to uphold the standards and be the backbone.
But there are times that you will need to step out of the hardass mode , and be that big brother/sister or even father/mother role model for your people.
Sometimes as leaders you have to wear many hats and it some times, it may even mean that you have to offer a shoulder to lean on. Share a story with each other about life or just talk about some hobby or favorite thing that you like.
Just remember that young PVT if you take that time learn about them may someday be a CSM or even a Unit Commander. Mentor them, don't coddle them, train them to the standards and remind them of the rules and regs.
If you can do all this with all your SM's you will leave your mark on the next generation of leaders.
Hope that this helps
I treated each situation based on the person and the issue at hand. Sometimes there may be things going on at home that is causing the SM to act out of the norm. Just remember that we all are human, sometimes when the stress gets tough and you do not have not lived through all the life curve balls it can be tough.
For example I had one SM that smarted off to his Section Chief as we were in the field training when I was the PLT SGT. I overheard this comment, at first the Section Chief handled it what appeared to be fine. But later that day, I made it a point to take time to have a heart to heart chat with this SM.
I made it clear when I spoke with this SM that I was only chatting as a man to man and not in regards to the comments that I witnessed earliered that day. I just wanted to find out if everything was going on fine with them.
I learned by having this man to man chat that his mother had terminal illiness that he just learned about and he was not sure how to cope with everything. It is in these moments that you need to use your resources as a leader to help them cope. Not just to be their to chew them out and reinforce the standards. Granted as a NCO we are expected to uphold the standards and be the backbone.
But there are times that you will need to step out of the hardass mode , and be that big brother/sister or even father/mother role model for your people.
Sometimes as leaders you have to wear many hats and it some times, it may even mean that you have to offer a shoulder to lean on. Share a story with each other about life or just talk about some hobby or favorite thing that you like.
Just remember that young PVT if you take that time learn about them may someday be a CSM or even a Unit Commander. Mentor them, don't coddle them, train them to the standards and remind them of the rules and regs.
If you can do all this with all your SM's you will leave your mark on the next generation of leaders.
Hope that this helps
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I was conducting a test and walked into the darkroom just to check on my class. A young sailor decided to tell me to get the f___ out of his darkroom! Well, needless to say, everyone in that darkroom had to redo their entire test because I kicked the turnaround door right out and light shone on everyone’s testing material! I had that young sailor go to my office and stand at attention until I explained to my supervisor why he was there.
I was not given the privilege of kicking him out of the Navy, but wish I had been!
A similar incident involving a young girl caught huffing in her barracks room was downplayed and I took the blame for that one and the one who should have taken the fall and thanked me for not telling on him later became the Detailer…you’re welcome Tom!
Brave command that I served and you ALL KNEW!!!!
I was not given the privilege of kicking him out of the Navy, but wish I had been!
A similar incident involving a young girl caught huffing in her barracks room was downplayed and I took the blame for that one and the one who should have taken the fall and thanked me for not telling on him later became the Detailer…you’re welcome Tom!
Brave command that I served and you ALL KNEW!!!!
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This is easy. Tell him or her. They just earned an Article-15. And they are to report to thier duty station I just assigned to them. And will be getting informed of when and where to report for the reading of such action. Disrespect to an NCO. Will not be tolerated. And go on with it.
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