Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 3697
BEHIND THE WOODSHED MOMENT ......................... FC2, Work Center Leader, ................. in formation, others are not allowed to breathe without specific approval from ME. In an informal setting, MAYBE. In a private setting, ANY TIME, and I will listen. However in formation, there is my Chief, my DO and possibly the WEPS Officer; I would be in their ass with both boots and a peening hammer, trigger down.
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Oh, I love this kind of guys.
1. Have him and his Team Leader "Stand Fast."
2. Reprimand in private with Team Leader present.
3. This is the good part you as an NCO are authorized to issue Corrective Training or Remedial Training in the area of the soldier's failure or short comings. The hard part is that it will require your time to do so after daily duty hours. The key here is to take away the soldiers down time/off duty time.
You have to be creative as to how. Example, I had a soldier who after we had return from the field, after a very long field exercise. Took four hours to clean his weapon and yet it still was not clean. While the rest of the squad was done with their weapons, and everyone had chipped in on cleaning the crew serves. I brought this soldier to my room along with his Team Leader and instructed this soldier to be standing at my door at 0600 the following morning with his weapon. I had to make arrangements with the armor and his team leader for him to draw his weapon from the armory. At 0600 (A Saturday) he with all of his battle rattle and his team leader were at my door. I had the soldier sit at my desk and read the manual as to how to properly clean an M16A1. Then instructed him to clean it, in about 15 minutes it was clean, remember the day before he had 4 hours to clean it. He was standing there with all smiles. I then reached in to one of my desk's drawers a recovered to magazine full of blanks and a blank adapter and instructed him to meet us down at this tree below my window. While me and his team leader refilled our cups of coffee.
We meet him by the tree with the two magazines and the adapter and instructed him on just how long it should take to clean a weapon, but the weapon must be dirty under normal combat or training conditions. I issued him the two magazine and told him that me just firing 60 rounds of blanks through his weapon would not qualify for such conditions. I told him that to get the weapon properly dirty under proper conditions what he would have to do, from the prone, 3 to 5 second rush, drop, combat roll in, fire a blank, combat roll out and repeat until all 60 rounds we expended. All the while his team leader and I stood there drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. this was back when I smoked. Our Co heard the blank fires and came to inquire I informed him of the situation and instructed us to "Carry On."
After this exercise, we returned to my room he sat at my desk and had his weapon cleaned in just under an hour, and ready for the arms room. I then told him if we were to have this problem again, I reached into another draw and recovered six more magazines.
I didn't have a problem with him ever since that day.
So, have this private cleaning trash cans from the mess hall every day for a week after 1800 hours so long as you are present.
Writing soldiers up for AR-15 is too easy and a lazy way out. These are the soldier you are going to have to drag along into combat and you don't have time then to deal with their non-sense and BS.
Oh yeah one more thing, it's a bonus the soldiers in you squad/platoon know that you are willing to spend your time with them to make them better rather than just writing them up for UCMJ, will have more respect for you and then will go that extra mile for you.
Be creative, spend the time, make better soldiers. less AR-15s
1. Have him and his Team Leader "Stand Fast."
2. Reprimand in private with Team Leader present.
3. This is the good part you as an NCO are authorized to issue Corrective Training or Remedial Training in the area of the soldier's failure or short comings. The hard part is that it will require your time to do so after daily duty hours. The key here is to take away the soldiers down time/off duty time.
You have to be creative as to how. Example, I had a soldier who after we had return from the field, after a very long field exercise. Took four hours to clean his weapon and yet it still was not clean. While the rest of the squad was done with their weapons, and everyone had chipped in on cleaning the crew serves. I brought this soldier to my room along with his Team Leader and instructed this soldier to be standing at my door at 0600 the following morning with his weapon. I had to make arrangements with the armor and his team leader for him to draw his weapon from the armory. At 0600 (A Saturday) he with all of his battle rattle and his team leader were at my door. I had the soldier sit at my desk and read the manual as to how to properly clean an M16A1. Then instructed him to clean it, in about 15 minutes it was clean, remember the day before he had 4 hours to clean it. He was standing there with all smiles. I then reached in to one of my desk's drawers a recovered to magazine full of blanks and a blank adapter and instructed him to meet us down at this tree below my window. While me and his team leader refilled our cups of coffee.
We meet him by the tree with the two magazines and the adapter and instructed him on just how long it should take to clean a weapon, but the weapon must be dirty under normal combat or training conditions. I issued him the two magazine and told him that me just firing 60 rounds of blanks through his weapon would not qualify for such conditions. I told him that to get the weapon properly dirty under proper conditions what he would have to do, from the prone, 3 to 5 second rush, drop, combat roll in, fire a blank, combat roll out and repeat until all 60 rounds we expended. All the while his team leader and I stood there drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. this was back when I smoked. Our Co heard the blank fires and came to inquire I informed him of the situation and instructed us to "Carry On."
After this exercise, we returned to my room he sat at my desk and had his weapon cleaned in just under an hour, and ready for the arms room. I then told him if we were to have this problem again, I reached into another draw and recovered six more magazines.
I didn't have a problem with him ever since that day.
So, have this private cleaning trash cans from the mess hall every day for a week after 1800 hours so long as you are present.
Writing soldiers up for AR-15 is too easy and a lazy way out. These are the soldier you are going to have to drag along into combat and you don't have time then to deal with their non-sense and BS.
Oh yeah one more thing, it's a bonus the soldiers in you squad/platoon know that you are willing to spend your time with them to make them better rather than just writing them up for UCMJ, will have more respect for you and then will go that extra mile for you.
Be creative, spend the time, make better soldiers. less AR-15s
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"Push up position" everyone else move out, dismissed!
After I smoked the shxt out of him he would get a counseling in writing, and then be assigned to every detail and extra duty he would voluntold for I could find. -0- tolerance and zero mercy at this point...been there done that! The Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant would also be briefed, no officer needs to be in the loop. This pain would last a while...
After I smoked the shxt out of him he would get a counseling in writing, and then be assigned to every detail and extra duty he would voluntold for I could find. -0- tolerance and zero mercy at this point...been there done that! The Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant would also be briefed, no officer needs to be in the loop. This pain would last a while...
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Little bastard would still be doing pushups. Or run till he pucks maybe both.
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being Old School Army I know how a Sergeant would react to it. The new Army I don "t know.
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In this situation praise in public punish in
private is out the window. Soldiers these days are about looking for weakness. The NCO was challenged in public so he has to let the others know this type of behavior will not and can not be tolerated. The SM has to be corrected in front if the other Soldiers quickly with no hesitation.
private is out the window. Soldiers these days are about looking for weakness. The NCO was challenged in public so he has to let the others know this type of behavior will not and can not be tolerated. The SM has to be corrected in front if the other Soldiers quickly with no hesitation.
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"They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else."
LOL... Me:
"Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, this is not a fking democracy, nor is this your Army - but this is MY platoon and until that changes, you will do what I say or you will find yourself beating your face on the ground until Jesus returns or you will be chaptered out of this Army."
Pretty simple.
LOL... Me:
"Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, this is not a fking democracy, nor is this your Army - but this is MY platoon and until that changes, you will do what I say or you will find yourself beating your face on the ground until Jesus returns or you will be chaptered out of this Army."
Pretty simple.
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It should have been an immediate article 15 at least. This is the kind of person that we expect to defend the country? How we long for the days of Fort Knox and the 50's. Where is R. Lee Erney?
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Crush his fucking soul. The first time would be a smoke session to make him reconsider his religious affiliations and help him understand how insubordination is poision amongst the ranks, which if not corrected during a time of conflict will lead to multiple casualties sue to a lack of trust in the leaders set forth by the Army.
Inspire his team leader to correct this action and see it stays corrected and then counsel all Team leaders your expectations from their soldiers.
Second time would just be paperwork with the understanding that a third time would be reccomendation for company grade article 15 and explain everything that can come with that with heavy emphasis on extra duty, pay removed and rank lost.
Inspire his team leader to correct this action and see it stays corrected and then counsel all Team leaders your expectations from their soldiers.
Second time would just be paperwork with the understanding that a third time would be reccomendation for company grade article 15 and explain everything that can come with that with heavy emphasis on extra duty, pay removed and rank lost.
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Senior NCO's and Officers are not always correct and or truthful in their dealings with troops. I was busted in rank twice, but I was right! Poor leadership is more often to blame. Rank doesn't give you the right to disrespect me!
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The initial reaction would be to get control of the Soldier and his behavior. Once that is taken care of, I would have the Soldier, his or her Platoon Sergeant and Team Chief come to my office. I want to know what is going on with the Soldier. Is this a normal thing that this Soldier does or is this a first offense?
The Soldier has to be taught that under no circumstances will you disrespect your leaders. Discipline has to be instilled in the Soldier and his/her corrective training will focus on building that character trait. This is a great teaching and mentoring moment that if handle correctly will send a message to all that were involved. We all have things that come up and sometimes boil over, but it doesn’t give us the right to throw discipline out the window.
The Soldier has to be taught that under no circumstances will you disrespect your leaders. Discipline has to be instilled in the Soldier and his/her corrective training will focus on building that character trait. This is a great teaching and mentoring moment that if handle correctly will send a message to all that were involved. We all have things that come up and sometimes boil over, but it doesn’t give us the right to throw discipline out the window.
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Been exposed to worse... Ft. Leonard Wood, MO late October 1967. I was an E-1 wearing one of those E-5 sleeves after finishing Leadership School and was assigned to help the E-6 Platoon Sergeant during AIT. Two days later that E-6 received orders to go to the NCO Academy - somewhere unknown to me. I was told to move into his room and do his job. My first day I had to send 3 to KP and 2 to clean the barracks. I got up before Revelee, posted 5 names on the wall and went for an early breakfast before the lights were on. Returning to my barracks in the dark I turned a corner to my building and 5 black trainees appeared from out of the bushes and surrounded me. I knew the tallest guy Parker, who washed out of leadership school, but the others I didn't know. They told me that they were not going to do the posted jobs and I better find someone else, or they were going to kick my ass.
Just what I needed on my first day. So, the only thing I could think of was to go down with style. I said that I didn't expect that they were sissys and would have the honor to take me on one-at-a-time, so I said "You're first Parker, then I pointed to the second biggest guy and I said you're #2, then the next tallest - #3 then #4 and then I turned to the shortest guy and I remember blurting out, something like "If I'm still standing when I'm done with #4, you better hope you can out run me shorty, because your ass will be mine.
As I started closing in on Parker I said, I hate to have to do this to you guys, because you will all be in the brigade doing shittier labor than what I've assigned to you this morning and I'll be done with you one way or the other. But the funny thing is that I didn't pick you because of your race. Witch of you are in the top bunk at the end of a row? EVERY ONE OF YOU IS. Tomorrow the guys below you will be selected because I don't know names yet, but I can remember which bunks come next.
Then I said "So let's go Parker either get this thing started, or go back to the barracks and prepare for KP."
Sure, Parker very well may have kicked my ass by himself. We never found out. These 5 guys became a sort of posse for me and became my "enforcers" any time anyone gave me shit... just by supporting whatever I said and giving anyone who didn't want to comply "dirty looks" that made them reconsider. It was epic.
Morale of the story: Stand your ground. A bloody face demands more respect than a pink stripe down your back. You can take that to the bank.
Just what I needed on my first day. So, the only thing I could think of was to go down with style. I said that I didn't expect that they were sissys and would have the honor to take me on one-at-a-time, so I said "You're first Parker, then I pointed to the second biggest guy and I said you're #2, then the next tallest - #3 then #4 and then I turned to the shortest guy and I remember blurting out, something like "If I'm still standing when I'm done with #4, you better hope you can out run me shorty, because your ass will be mine.
As I started closing in on Parker I said, I hate to have to do this to you guys, because you will all be in the brigade doing shittier labor than what I've assigned to you this morning and I'll be done with you one way or the other. But the funny thing is that I didn't pick you because of your race. Witch of you are in the top bunk at the end of a row? EVERY ONE OF YOU IS. Tomorrow the guys below you will be selected because I don't know names yet, but I can remember which bunks come next.
Then I said "So let's go Parker either get this thing started, or go back to the barracks and prepare for KP."
Sure, Parker very well may have kicked my ass by himself. We never found out. These 5 guys became a sort of posse for me and became my "enforcers" any time anyone gave me shit... just by supporting whatever I said and giving anyone who didn't want to comply "dirty looks" that made them reconsider. It was epic.
Morale of the story: Stand your ground. A bloody face demands more respect than a pink stripe down your back. You can take that to the bank.
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Depends on the color of their skin. Are they LGBQT? If yes, nothing.
WASP? Discipline to the highest possible sentence.
WASP? Discipline to the highest possible sentence.
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As has been said at Ft. Benning for "millenia" (it will always be Benning to many of us), the PVT would be pushing Georgia down to Florida.
To be honest though, if the PVT goes so far as to tell you to choose someone else, he/she has been failed by their previous chain of command & I seriously question their drill SGT.
This has to be nipped in the bud quickly! If it happens a second time they would be coming in on a Sat for PT and remedial training.
To be honest though, if the PVT goes so far as to tell you to choose someone else, he/she has been failed by their previous chain of command & I seriously question their drill SGT.
This has to be nipped in the bud quickly! If it happens a second time they would be coming in on a Sat for PT and remedial training.
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Dismiss everyone except him and his squad leader. He needs to explain his actions, if he does with respect, accept it. But there still need consequences for his actions. Not only for his understanding but for all that observed the action. If he still has attitude, smoke him!
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Stand them at attention and explain to them that this is not the civilian world and the they work for the military and they are to obey orders. If not they will be written up. And explain to them what happens to them when they get so many write ups.
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Ha! Do the old school thing: Punish everyone else. Explain why they are receiving correcting action. They will make swift correction of his insubordination.
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SGT Chuck Freiman
Nah. I don't believe in this mass punishment shit. Only the guilty should be punished. To use a complex psychological phrase, smoke the E2's ass until the lesson is learned.
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PO2 Dean Wilder
I agree with Chuck. It pissed me off to get punished for some dipshitz that I served with and made me disrespect the person handing out the punishment. Lazy. There is ALWAYS something needing painted, shined, cleaned, scraped, peened, buffed, polished .... on a ship. Especially the ships bell; out in public and everyone is allowed to comment on how well they are doing the cleaning.
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I suggest immediate correction with emphasis on military bearing, being a team member and team cohesion. I further suggest such corrective action be presented at first as an unemotional/unreactive teaching moment for the entire unit. Expressing that the lack of team cohesion is always selfish in motivating reasoning and such behavior eventually will get someone seriously injured or killed. No team can or will trust and/or embrace selfish, self-centered members. If the enlisted person still insists on refusal and insubordinant attitude, I would ask the individual to address the Senior Drill as well as the unit to explain exactly why they are refusing and how they feel their insubordinant manner of behavior is correct. If attitude persists and without a reasonable explanation (i.e. fear or no understand of how to complete task). I suggest the next step would be to issue this enlisted person a direct, legal order to carry out said task. Failure to do so in any fashion other than in a sharp, professional military manner - Article 15, would then be most appropriate.
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I retired from Army Infantry in 2003. If this happened to me I would handle this situation immediately and harshly with extreme prejudice. This POS would have become my pet project and would suffer world class Physical Training to the extent that he would be traumatized and regret he ever lost his discipline. I’d do every bit of PT with him FYI. And after the hour’s session of PT, he’d be supervised to complete the original work task he was ordered to do. Discipline and immediate response to orders is what is necessary to complete the mission. RLTW!
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