Posted on Jan 1, 2015
Hypothetically speaking and excluding General Courts Martial what if the 1SG or CSM had UCMJ authority with commanders as the reviewer?
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I've led two platoons, a detachment, three companies one of which was in combat, a battalion, and a deployed Task Force in combat and I have to say my least favorite requirement was to administer non-judicial punishment to Soldiers. I hated it. Don't get me wrong, I did my job. I've often wondered if NCO's had the authority and officers were the reviewer would the effect on discipline been any different. Let's face it as an officer whenever I walked into a new job my counterpart almost always had a great deal more experience than I did and frankly I seldom disagreed with their recommendations when it came time to administer punishment. As a new company commander I had a grand total of 6 years as an officer while my 1SG had over 18 years of experience. I always gave him his due respect and included him in all aspects of the UCMJ process but not all officers are the same. Do all officers consider the full effect of giving a young PFC a company grade ART-15 and maxing him out versus a summarized and suspending everything? Would an NCO have greater appreciation for the impact punishment would have on that same PFC? Trust me officers don't receive extensive training on how to be a judge, jury, and executioner in any of our basic, advanced, or senior service training courses and as far as I know neither do NCO's. Therefore it comes down to personality and judgement of the particular officer responsible for making that potentially career ending UCMJ decision. Some officers are extremely quick to pull the trigger without ensuring that the CoC had done their due diligence prior to elevating to the command level. I insisted on seeing the counseling packet and hearing from the entire CoC and believe it or not they were not always in agreement on the recommendation. I told my leaders that I was not their personal sledge hammer or shortcut to problem resolution. I expected problems to be handled at the lowest level where appropriate. However, some of my command peers handed out non-judicial punishment like candy on Halloween and I sometimes thought they were just too eager to eat their own. Everyone makes mistakes and I often thought that, "there but for the grace of God go I." I understand that Soldiers must follow the orders of the officers appointed over them or we would cease to be an effective fighting force but what would be the impact on the force if NCO's handled punishment? Would it have a positive or negative effect on the Esprit de Corps of the unit? Would it negatively impact the commander's ability to effectively lead? Thoughts?
Discipline
UCMJ
Esprit de Corps
Leadership
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 21
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In 16 years, I have never had a Commander that did not discuss Art15's with the unit CEM (E9), Shirt, and usually the Flight Commander and Superintendent. This is in additional to Legal reviewing it as well. I believe leaving it at the Commander is best, not because NCO's/SNCO's are not competent, but because it ensures that NJP is fair across the unit.
Things go horribly wrong when Commanders act in a vacuum or worse yet, to make themselves "promotable." Those that listen to the advise of their NCO's/SNCO's might have 1 mad SM, but the unit will know that it was fair.
Things go horribly wrong when Commanders act in a vacuum or worse yet, to make themselves "promotable." Those that listen to the advise of their NCO's/SNCO's might have 1 mad SM, but the unit will know that it was fair.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
COL Roger Lintz, all of those are crimes non the less. Likely not worthy of a federal felony conviction from a CM, but a crime non the less, which is why the member can decline the NJP and opt for CM. I have only seen it done once and the SJA declined to prosecute. This did hinder the Commander in the long term.
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COL Roger Lintz
Spot on again! I've heard the urban legend of a Soldier being chewed out after work and told he better have a damn haircut before inspection the following morning. When the Soldier informed his supervisor that the barber shop was closed he said, "I don't care where you go or what you have to do but you better have a haircut." So he went AWOL for 2 weeks and when he came back he had a closely cropped haircut. I was told that the SJA would not support an Art-15 because the Soldier did exactly what he was told. You gotta be kidding me right??? Oh well that's the legend.
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CMSgt James Nolan
COL Roger Lintz Sir that would be following his orders "to the letter." Not wise, because there would be some variety of payback at some point, but you gotta give that troop his props for having stones (albeit some in the head) but stones. And of course, I too think it would fall under the Urban Legend category!
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COL Lintz and LTC Mackay,
I whole-heartedly agree that input and advisement by Senior Enlisted Leaders in the CoC is essential. Moreover, while I don't believe this responsibility could or should be delegated or shared with Senior Enlisted, I do believe that some type of Senior Enlisted led instruction on the pros, cons and effects of these types of decisions shared with junior officers in their formative years ie. PLT LDR, CO XO, CO CMDR (2LT-CPT) yield better and fairer outcomes without demolishment of a salvageable young PFC-SGT, IMHO...
I whole-heartedly agree that input and advisement by Senior Enlisted Leaders in the CoC is essential. Moreover, while I don't believe this responsibility could or should be delegated or shared with Senior Enlisted, I do believe that some type of Senior Enlisted led instruction on the pros, cons and effects of these types of decisions shared with junior officers in their formative years ie. PLT LDR, CO XO, CO CMDR (2LT-CPT) yield better and fairer outcomes without demolishment of a salvageable young PFC-SGT, IMHO...
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COL Roger Lintz
SGT (P) Wise,
Great response! It's really interesting to see the perspectives from the NCO's.
Thanks
Great response! It's really interesting to see the perspectives from the NCO's.
Thanks
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COL Roger Lintz Sir, I think that the reason that the military gives it to the officers is for the fact that for most issues there are opportunities for the NCOs to handle the situation prior to making to the officer. Handle it at the lowest level. With that you know you messed up if a Commander is calling you into his/her office. It might add to the effect. Also, officers are given different authorities than enlisted to spread it out and have some lanes. If you give that to senior NCOs they lose their advisor role on one of the most crucial items within an unit. I leaned on my first sergeant's opinions and most of the time we agreed on what to recommend to higher or to do at our level. If we disagreed ultimately I had the final decision. You take that away from the officer they may be emboldened elsewhere and the Commander will have virtual no authority as you have the "carrot: but not the "stick". Why listen to the Commander if he/she cannot punish me but only the 1SG/CSM. Just my thoughts on the subject.
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I, as a young E-4 once was almost 6 hours late returning from a 4 day pass. Though I did not miss a movement this is still punishable under the UCMJ. I had a 1SG who gave me 5 days extra duty, 5 hours a day, rather than recommend punishment under the UCMJ to the CO. This kept me eligible for promotion and gave me a greater respect for the NCO CoC.
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I'm amazed that a Coast Guard CWO2 and a Master Chief have answered and not brought up a glaring difference between the services.
In the Coast Guard, E-7's and above can be placed in full-fledged COMMAND of units, and this includes being able to use full UCMJ authority. Of course, the units are smaller (usually 50 personnel and fewer), but they have legitimate command of those units. They also run the risks of all Commissioned Officers with that command - possible reliefs for cause for lack of confidence and all the other wonderful things that go along with it.
Why is this so hard to imagine, especially when we've been doing it successfully for over 100 years?
In the Coast Guard, E-7's and above can be placed in full-fledged COMMAND of units, and this includes being able to use full UCMJ authority. Of course, the units are smaller (usually 50 personnel and fewer), but they have legitimate command of those units. They also run the risks of all Commissioned Officers with that command - possible reliefs for cause for lack of confidence and all the other wonderful things that go along with it.
Why is this so hard to imagine, especially when we've been doing it successfully for over 100 years?
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The Military Command Structure and UCMJ are there for a reason, it set out the responsibilities for every individual from Private soldier to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The responsibility of an NCO is to train, maintain and manage those soldiers under them. They can counsel, correct and reprimand their soldiers; also, they can recommend Article 32 investigation and if necessary NJP. There are other useful tools that be applied to discipline and correct errant enlisted, such as Correctional Custody (at least in the AF - I don't know about the other services).
I firmly agree, sir with your assertion that disciplinary correction should be accomplished at the lowest level with best utilization of resources. Enough said except – “ALL THE WAY” - 20th Engineers (Airborne) ( At least in my times )
I firmly agree, sir with your assertion that disciplinary correction should be accomplished at the lowest level with best utilization of resources. Enough said except – “ALL THE WAY” - 20th Engineers (Airborne) ( At least in my times )
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1st
From Section Leader and my PL/ CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
To platoon sergeant and my PL/CO, BN CO BDE CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
To 1SG and my CO, BN CO BDE CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
I can not think of a single time UCMJ did not go exactly as I thought it should, not harsher or lesser.
So from my experiences I would say it works as designed.
NCO's have many tools when supported by the officers to deal with minor transgressions. All the way to separations proceeding that when done right are started at, documented by NCO, s supported by officers and honestly discussed and decided upon before it starts, so once worked up, is all but a rubber stamp by the approval authority. IOW it was decided as the way to go before the first required"counseling" is done.
Officers as the approval authority for UCMJ makes it a stepped, increase in dealing with minor offenders. It is an obvious and understood escalation of behavior modification that every Soldier clearly sees and understands.
From Section Leader and my PL/ CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
To platoon sergeant and my PL/CO, BN CO BDE CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
To 1SG and my CO, BN CO BDE CO asking for my recommendations on UCMJ
I can not think of a single time UCMJ did not go exactly as I thought it should, not harsher or lesser.
So from my experiences I would say it works as designed.
NCO's have many tools when supported by the officers to deal with minor transgressions. All the way to separations proceeding that when done right are started at, documented by NCO, s supported by officers and honestly discussed and decided upon before it starts, so once worked up, is all but a rubber stamp by the approval authority. IOW it was decided as the way to go before the first required"counseling" is done.
Officers as the approval authority for UCMJ makes it a stepped, increase in dealing with minor offenders. It is an obvious and understood escalation of behavior modification that every Soldier clearly sees and understands.
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COL Roger Lintz having thought about this question on and off over the last year I have to say NO. Leave it as IS. As you described some officers, that is the same for some NCO/CPOs also - MANY do not think of the consequences of their decisions and recommendation AT mast let alone if they had the final say. The Officer Corps is paid to make these kind of decisions and LIVE with them so that is where they belong.
BUT, I really do appreciate the thinking you made me do with the question. I have really gone back and forth over it since you posted it. Thanks
BUT, I really do appreciate the thinking you made me do with the question. I have really gone back and forth over it since you posted it. Thanks
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I did learn something here today with both Navy and Coast Guard people mentioning the Chiefs Mess used in some disciplinary situations. That was an interesting concept which it seems worked ok from what I've heard here. Colonel Lintz, sounds like a process where some services do use enlisted people in the process at least for minor offenses. I have Myself worked as a First Sergeant but it seems the Army and Air Force handle that pretty much the same and I presume the Marines as well. It looks like it did get a few of us thinking though. one of the Commanders, a Captain I had served as a First Sergeant for had been a former NCO and sure had the insight from His own experience. He also by the way retired from the USAF as a Full Colonel. I loved working with and for Him.
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"COL Roger Lintz
Hypothetically speaking and excluding General Courts Martial what if the 1SG or CSM had UCMJ authority with commanders as the reviewer?"
What if, if only....... That punk Lt that walked across the grass at the DFAC, many he would have been toast....
And that folks is the nonsense mentality I see from way too many in what they perceive otherwise stereotype senior NCO's
Are there those types? of course, as there are officers that should not be in charge of a #2 pencil
But like the many officers I have worked with I would led, walk next to or follow anywhere, there are many senior NCOs that I worked with, most in fact that would do the authority justice (pun intended) if UCMJ athority was vested in them to administer.
Hypothetically speaking and excluding General Courts Martial what if the 1SG or CSM had UCMJ authority with commanders as the reviewer?"
What if, if only....... That punk Lt that walked across the grass at the DFAC, many he would have been toast....
And that folks is the nonsense mentality I see from way too many in what they perceive otherwise stereotype senior NCO's
Are there those types? of course, as there are officers that should not be in charge of a #2 pencil
But like the many officers I have worked with I would led, walk next to or follow anywhere, there are many senior NCOs that I worked with, most in fact that would do the authority justice (pun intended) if UCMJ athority was vested in them to administer.
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