Posted on Jun 12, 2019
SPC(P) Medical Laboratory Specialist
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We have a new 1SG and new commander. The 1SG noticed one day that only 5 people in the whole company showed up to PT. Now he put out to all the platoon Sergeants that everyone must show up to PT at either the 0530 formation or the 1600 formation.

However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.

I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.

As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.

How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
Edited 6 y ago
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SSgt John Vela
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Listen Sad Sack... If you're writing something like this, you shouldn't even be in the service. Put on your big boy pants and man up.
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SPC Drug Suppression Team Investigator
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Go to your first line and request shift PT. The army has multiple MOS’s that require to work shifts. MPs do it, cooks do it Medical personnel do it. MOS’s with shift work should do shift specific PT.

After I work my 8 hour day shift 0315-1300 (sometimes later if someone decides to try and sneak drugs into the gate) and then we do PT right after we get off.

But for Swings for instance we would go into PT at 0930 before a 1200 weapons draw and 1730 before a 1900 weapons draw for Mid shift. It’s not an unusual thing to do shift PT. Easiest thing to do is request that it be that way.
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Cpl Andrew Jamrozek
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Having worked night shift after my Marine Corps service, I feel your pain. From working against your body's circadian rhythm to daily outside noises, I don't think people who don't work overnight fully understand how hard it is to get quality sleep to begin with, which is what's indirectly being asked of you.
I would raise the issue that this is pretty counterproductive to PT's intent, especially working in a medical environment. Averaging 4-5 hours of sleep with work and PT under the added stress of discipline is asking for a compromised immune system. I'd address this with my chain of command and ask for some sort of exception, even if that meant spending lunch doing my PT instead.
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SFC Facility Chief
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You have 9 hours after PT to sleep. What's the problem?
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SGT David Petree
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change your habits !! go to bed early get plenty of sleep. or just pt drunk ! we did it in Germany way back when. most guys ran better on Mon. then on Fri. get your shit in gear.
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COL William Oseles
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I was Junior enlisted at one time and you have a couple of options.
1) Talk to your PLT SGT and explain the scheduling issue and request an earlier or later time;
2) Talk to your Supervisor if you are uncomfortable talking with the PSG;
2) or show up,show up at 0530.
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1px xxx
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Awww you poor thing. You have a swing shift, and no way to make accountability with anyone, and you are whining becuase you have to wake up to show up. Maybe you should go talk to the Behavior specialists in the stress office so you can find some way to manage your time, or GROW A PAIR, get your Team leader, Squad leade, and PSG and march them ll into the 1SG;s office and explain tohem that whle everyone else is given their 8 hours to speep, you re getting fucked becuase you are on swing shift without a solution to accountability.
Here's your solution cucpcake: CALL YOUR PSG for accountability, then go back to sleep, OR maybe your entire shift should go to your shit manager and have that person step up and get their accountability done with 1SG so you all are not affected negatively.
MAJ A/Xo
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Stories like yours are why soldiers are get out because of a lack of common sense leadership. The army has work/rest cycles that were "supposed" to follow but never do. If you work an odd shift leadership "should" take that into account and tell you to do PT at a reasonable time with your shift supervisior....or do PT on your own. I work a night shift and it never suprises me how leadership at all levels forgets that not everyone works durinng the day only.
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SFC Infantryman
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Lol get you life together and learn some time management skills...
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CWO4 Miles Weaver
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There is no problem to solve. You're in the military -- go to PT.
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CWO4 Miles Weaver
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There is no problem to solve! In combat, are you going to be able to say that you will stand watch, go on a patrol, man a post, defend the perimeter, etc., only when you have had enough sleep? Put on your big girl panties and do your job (part of which involves PT).
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MAJ Clyde Howell
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This is where your First Line has to fulfill his responsibilities as your superior and address the situation on your behalf and on behalf of your section. Does s/he have the political skills to negotiate with the 1SGT? Does s/he have the moral courage to take the issue to the Commander, if unsuccessful with the 1SGT? Just as important, does s/he have a plan for how your section will fulfill the requirement to engage in PT?

I suggest that your section assemble for PT formation, led by your First Line, at a specified time that allows sufficient sleep and still allows all to meet their shift times. Now, can your First Line sell that to your 1SGT and Commander?
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MAJ Clyde Howell
MAJ Clyde Howell
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Addemdum: To add, SFC Michael D is absolutely correct as far as sleep. If deployed in any capacity you may very well have to work on 4-5 hours of sleep (or less) and still be effective. Can't do anything about that.
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Cpl Jim Zimmerman
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WOW as a Jr. Enlisted(Whatever that is) i can't believe you are even asking that question. If you are ordered to PT,YOU GO TO PT. Attempt to speak with the Platoon Sgt and explain the situation calmly and professionally. If he cant be reasoned with you have a chain of Command. But in the meantime DO the PT. DUDE 5 hours of sleep!!! That's a vacation!!
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MSG Michael Tribble
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You are a scrub!
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COL Jim Ainslie
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I think most of the answers are missing the issue that the 1SG has established two periods for PT. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. This is far from a toxic leadership issue. It is one of basic military readiness. If the SPC chooses to go to the 1600 then he is coming off of a full 8 hours of sleep. Sorry folks, I think the 1SG is in the right.
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CSM Donald McGlasson
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I get it, your work schedule is different than most and should be considered when adopting/developing a PT program. Maybe the 1SG could detail one of the NCOs in your section to lead PT another time of day.
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SP5 Ann Parris
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Perhaps you should explain to your supervisor the necessity to be at the 1600 formation.
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GySgt Marc Dickerson
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Suck it up. Do what you're told. The only way they can break you is if you allow it. Consider it a test of your fortitude. Don't give anyone the satisfaction of turning you into a whiner. Keep the faith. Follow the chain of command procedures if you feel things aren't correct.
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SGT Lawrence Frank
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How bout you fuckin sleep from 0700 to 1500. There I just gave you 8hrs of sleep. Your sleep pattern is not the priority. Manning your position and conducting you duties from 1600-0000 is. ADJUST YOUR PRIORITIES, get it done and be the best at it.
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CPO Jeffrey Bohemier
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Going on 4-5 hours of sleep is typical in the military. In the Navy we were often told “you’ll have time to sleep when you are dead.” Apparently for some sailors stationed on 2 different DDG’s out of Japan, that actually became the case. During my 20 years of service, the typical attitude was that sleep was a luxury. In the case of the Navy, they’ve cut the size gor far too long, so now they’re trying to do the same amount of work with less than a third of the resources. SLEEP IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, as you need to sleep for the body to repair itself. I think you may need to over the 1SG’s head on this. It’s one thing to run on little sleep when you’re deployed, but when you’re not, going without sleep shouldn’t become a normal daily routine. Sounds to me like your 1SG is more interested in butt kissing the new commander than he is in taking proper care of his people. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE THE CASE. Throughout history, one of the prime causes of accidents in the military is a lack of sleep.
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1px xxx
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SPC Davis: reading your post and some of the replies there are a few possible ways to address the situation however, if the 1SG and the CDR feels like PT is not been taken serious or there is an issue with failed APFTs or body fat issues in the ranks, then I can see the issue. I have never seen a shift that crazy on a clinic or hospital before. Now better time management is a way but also may not be sustainable in the long run for that unit. My recommendation is to talk to your supervisor and find a way to do the PT session. In my opinion if I have Soldiers who does PT daily and is crushing the PT test then as long as thats covered and you performance is to standard we are good. In the other hand if you can't manage your time, performance suffers and you can't pass the APFT soon ACFT or can't pass the tape test then I will have to involve your first line supervisors to work and manage PT sessions and are involved with the progress of their Soldiers. It is a workable situation but with the new ACFT around the corner there is a lot of training to do to be able to pass that physical fitness test. Prepare for it and crush it then they will see how you can take care of your own physical readiness and most likely will be able to work with you.
SPC Julie Wilkerson
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Sleep deprivation was the norm. Have you talk to the shift supervisor about modifying your shift?
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MSgt Jim Bumgarner
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Do it. THEN explain to your NCOIC why you should be able to PT @ a different time.
Don't do the typical whiner thing. Lose a couple hours, I'm assuming you're young, your'e strong & you'll live. Man up & hooha.
Msgt ret. USMC
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CWO2 Shelby DuBois
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Sounds like the snowflake generation complaint.
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CPL Gail White
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Have you explained your hours and suggested a way that you would do PT at a different hour with a way for the 1SGT to verify? If he still requires it, suck it up. You are in the military
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SFC Mark Bailey
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LOL.... "back in the day" we called it the "Budweiser Banana Run"...
We got in from the Strasse at 0430...changed into our "banana suits"
(PT Uniforms were yellow back then "Safety First")
did our stretches/pushups/ situps ....and ran 5 miles smelling of beer and puke
......Puke because people kept swinging off to the side of the road to get rid of that last six pack

....then a quick shit-shower-shave and off to the motorpool, the rifle range or a 25 mile roadmarch out into the German woodline and back
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LCDR Aerospace Engineering Duty, Maintenance (AMDO and AMO)
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There's a lot of "suck it up, buttercup" response... and while I get that, I do think the command isn't acting properly. Having one Soldier who is tasked with showing up for a command function on a regular basis, right in the middle of the "off-shift" is questionable. Yes, I know, we're in the military 24/7, but there's some strong differential treatment.
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TSgt Chuck Mankin
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SPC Lane Wallace
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So many whining ass kids in the Military today, in 2008 I join the guard at 48 years old because I missed the Military. I was shocked at the level of maturity within my unit, I have never seen such lazy troops as I did within this unit. I did a PT test in 2009 and passed, none of these 20 year olds that I work with passed..............My last PT test was in 1986. And this guy is complaining about 4 to 5 hours sleep, I would be embarrassed to even post this!
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SPC Lane Wallace
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389d2c7d
So many pussy's in the Military today, grow the fuck up and do your job!
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SPC Brian Stephens
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You can solve it by going to PT. Sleep after.
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CPL Mark Garrigus
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LOL this is really good stuff and not even April fools day.
I guess I’m officially one old grunt now. Because I’ve heard everything.
What the hell is going on? I can’t even imagine a fat S4 clerk asking this question.
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Maj Charles Porter
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Go to PT.
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SGT Quentin Moore
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Take your 4th point of contact to pt
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MGySgt Rick Tyrrell
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I am sure this is not a daily event. Suck it up and go PT. Sleep is over rated any way
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SFC Charles Temm
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Be thankful you aren't in a line unit. We'd come back from the field early morning, get cleaned up and be told PT was at normal time. Married guys wouldn't even bother going home, stuff like that normal tho we didn't like it anymore than you apparently.

4-5 hours of sleep is more than many troops get during the normal scheme of things, this may suck but if shit ever hits the fan you'll likely get by w/far less rest and a lot more stress
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CPL Daniel Lotito
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Get up and go do PT
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SSG Clayton Lam
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Go to PT. Take a nap during your break before you have to report to work or during lunch.
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CH (CPT) Tino Villalovas
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I see this is old, but I’ll go on record anyway in case someone else is dealing with this problem.
I was an Army chaplain, so you can imagine I would want to display a measure of sensitivity to your situation. My bottom-line answer is that you need to go to PT.

There are some valid reasons that a Soldier should be excused from PT, but lack of sleep isn’t one of them. I know it must be very hard pushing through when you feel so exhausted but nevertheless, you need to be at PT.

Think of it this way. When you go to the field, you may not be able to get an ideal amount of sleep, but you still must focus on the mission. This is especially the case, when it’s a combat deployment
Each time I was deployed, it was common for me and my Soldiers to get little sleep. It was rough and unfortunate, but other than very rare instances, the mission must come first. Getting little sleep now might very well prepare you to be better equipped to handle a combat deployment when lives would be at risk if you failed to do your jobs to the best of your ability.

Remember this. Regardless of our MOS, our job is to be combat multipliers. Plain and simple. Our job is to win wars in the most humane way possible so that ultimately, we can save lives in the long run.

There are a few other things I would say. Perhaps you could talk to your platoon SGT (after letting your squad leader know) and see if there’s something he/she can do to make your schedule easier or allow you to do individual PT. Perhaps you could negotiate and offer to do some other kind of duty that would make up for their granting you some accommodations. If they won’t, then I’m afraid you just need to push through.

And I would not recommend going to your 1SGT. That may not go well for you. And certainly, don’t do it without your platoon SGT’s knowledge. That would go very, very badly for you. Trust me on this.

Another consideration (though it doesn’t seem to apply to your situation) is that I’m pretty sure that regulations state that a soldier is required to be allowed four hours sleep a night except in extreme circumstances, such a combat operations. Even then, four hours may not be always possible.

If your 1SGT or CDR was regularly putting you in situations where you couldn’t get at least four hours sleep for extended periods of time and there were not extreme mission demands (such as combat operations) and he/she is consistently unwilling to hear you out, then it might be time to seek out your chaplain. That would be an ethics violation that requires chaplain intervention. I’ve been in situations where CDR’s NCO’s were abusing their Soldiers and I had to intervene. Those situations are rare, but unfortunately, they do happen. I don’t think this applies to your situation though.

The only other thing I would say is that if you genuinely think it’s a health issue, you could go to sick call to see if there’s something you can do to make your sleep more restful. However, I wouldn’t make a habit of going to sick call unless your pretty sure it could be a health-related issue. That would go badly for your as well. The bottom line is that our job is to be combat multipliers and that means being in good physical shape. That means a Soldier needs to be at PT.

I know it’s hard, but that’s part of what it means to be a Soldier. I hope this helps.
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1LT Shaun Ray
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AR 30-22
FM 22-51
FM 6-22.5 CH 4

Basically you are required a minimum of 4 hours of continuous sleep with 6-8 hours preferred to maximize the effectiveness of the Soldier.

Now, if the 1SG says go to PT he is the NCOIC and it his world that you just operate within. Drink a cup of suck it up and make yourself a stronger Soldier. You are in the Army not a civilian job. There are no days off, just down time.
So, if you feel compelled to challenge your top NCO in the company spouting off regulations...let me know how that goes for you. He is either going to admire that you took the time to research regs OR more than likely smoke you until he gets tired (staying within regulations in the most creative way possible without getting in trouble).
The catch all answer, ask your first line supervisor and quit being weak. What are you going to do in actual war when PT, stamina, and discipline will keep you alive? Nah, 1SG I'm not getting up yet for the mission. I've only had 3 1/2 hours sleep. POG.
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