Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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my battalion sergeant major always would start the conversation with "lt have you got a minute?"
this man had been in the army longer than i have been alive.
i valued what he had to say, and he saved me more than once.
he was the best nco, the very best.
this man had been in the army longer than i have been alive.
i valued what he had to say, and he saved me more than once.
he was the best nco, the very best.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Glad to hear it, sir. Throughout the course of my career, I have had my share of bad leaders, both Officer and NCO. But they stick out because they are the exception, not the rule. I literally cannot count the number of outstanding leaders I have had the pleasure and honor to serve under and serve with, and/or lead.
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Guilty. I felt the men were being beaten down in an effort to break them and force respect when it was way too overboard. And opened my mouth. All these years later, I still regret my handling of the situation. He was way more gracious than I in the resolution, but I did get taken to the woodshed.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
IMHO, the important thing to take away from those situations is how not to be in them again. Sounds like you definitely learned that lesson and moved forward in a positive direction.
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I had a few interesting situations that were similar to this in chain of events, In the Command I was serving with our structure had Majors as Battery Commanders, Captains as Platoon Leaders and Lt's as Assistant Platoon Leaders/FCO's , As a SSG Platoon Sgt I had a Captain who decided to counsel a soldier about a small problem that came down the chain, She did this without talking to me or even informing me it was needed. I walked in mid session and ask what was going on, She said I am counseling this soldier, I turned to the Soldier and said step outside for just a minute, I then told the Captain that She was out of bounds and doing my job. Her response was She would counsel any soldier anytime She felt it was necessary, I said No you only have one Soldier (Me) to Counsel unless I ask for your assistance in a specific matter. There was some back and forth between us and I then opened the door and dismissed the Soldier back to his duties and told him I would talk with him a bit later as the Captain and I had to go meet with the 1sg, We both went to the 1sg and went behind closed doors there, The Commanders door was open and He was busy with something else but when he heard the content of the Conversation between the 1sg and the Captain He stepped to his door and called the Captain in his office alone, When the door reopened She departed and the Commander called me and the 1sg in, He stated that the Captain would not be counseling Soldiers without my knowledge and that if I had further problems with it to simply let him know and He would deal with it appropriately. When I got back to my desk I found 3 folders containing Soldier Counseling She had done and a note saying She had went to the Motor pool to check on Platoon Equipment readiness with the Motor Officer...
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To me I think it may be a sign of bigger problems in the BN of the SGM won’t respect the rank and the LT won’t respect the authority.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
SFC Casey O'Mally -
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
...
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
"I will not annoy the CSM.
...
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CSMs are god, experience, wisdom of time, even a 1st LT only has 4-5 years time in service, and by comparison he's a boot. Would take big balls from the LT to butt heads right there, just a losing play I’m sure the LTs Sr would council him on protocol.
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The old adage: "Praise in Public, but Criticize in Private" should always be true for anyone in authority, which ever rank was correcting who. I have seen instances where this went horribly bad, both a LT (Navy O3) chewing out a line aircraft maintenance handler (no safety related), and a Navy Chief (E7) chewing out a Navy LT (no safety related). Both incidents ended up having adverse career effects (less than stellar FITREP for the officer) and ostracizing from the Chiefs' Mess and eventual transfer for the Chief. As stated by others, there is a time and a place to "make a show" to teach greater lessons when safety is involved, but those occasions are rare.
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I never saw something like that happen. If anything if the LT did try to lock up the CSM for a bogus reason, best believe there would be a long one way conversation where the BC is involved AND doing all the talking.
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Generally the CSM is not going to rip the LT. He may give him some friendly advice, but if actual correction is needed the CSM will let his buddy the Captain, Major, LTC, etc… know and let them handle it. You don’t make it to that rank without knowing how to play the game. Like others mentioned, the CSM will likely attempt to correct the issue at the lowest level by having a private and friendly come to Jesus moment where he politely educates the LT in the error of his ways, but he’s not going stand there yelling at an officer unless there’s some sort of extreme circumstance. That’s just not how things are done.
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Should never berate anyone in front of others. Praise in public, discipline in private.
E7-E9 have an added responsibility of mentoring JOs. In you scenario the CSM is t wrong, but should do it in private.
E7-E9 have an added responsibility of mentoring JOs. In you scenario the CSM is t wrong, but should do it in private.
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I have only seen on CSM do that and he ended up at the Post Commanders Carpet I stood there as a new SPC4 I could not believe he was tearing my LT up. I started to say something to the CSM and was told by the CSM to keep my shit face closed. Needless to say someone saw it came by where we were standing and got our names. the next day i was told to press and shine my boots and report to the Post Commander at 13:00.
I did as I was told and showed up all spit and polish, my LT was there and the CSM, the CSM was chewed out by the Post Commander and was told to apologies to the LT, and he did. The LT was told to stand up for himself and use his rank. I was called up to his desk and he asked me why i did not speak up for my LT, I told him I tried to, but the CSM said some choice words to me Sir. He asked me what the CSM told me and I stayed quite the CG asked me what was wrong i ask him can I speak Freely. I was told I could, and I told the GC what the CSM said to me.
The CSM was told he could not talk to lower rank like that then the CG asked the CSM how long he had served and the CSM said about 28 years Sir, the CG said I see. About 2 weeks later to CSM got retirement orders. Boy I was glad to see our BN CSM leave.
I did as I was told and showed up all spit and polish, my LT was there and the CSM, the CSM was chewed out by the Post Commander and was told to apologies to the LT, and he did. The LT was told to stand up for himself and use his rank. I was called up to his desk and he asked me why i did not speak up for my LT, I told him I tried to, but the CSM said some choice words to me Sir. He asked me what the CSM told me and I stayed quite the CG asked me what was wrong i ask him can I speak Freely. I was told I could, and I told the GC what the CSM said to me.
The CSM was told he could not talk to lower rank like that then the CG asked the CSM how long he had served and the CSM said about 28 years Sir, the CG said I see. About 2 weeks later to CSM got retirement orders. Boy I was glad to see our BN CSM leave.
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Lesson from leadership training to prepare us to take on our duties as NCOs.
Praise in public criticize in private. If you feel a need to tear down someone in front of the troops you have already lost control of the situation.
Praise in public criticize in private. If you feel a need to tear down someone in front of the troops you have already lost control of the situation.
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I would suspect that the LT’s have already been given a forewarning regarding whom the CSM answers… How the CSM chooses to “discuss” with the LT any issues will probably happen in one of two ways, one, “I need a moment of your time”, or two, “You, the BC and I have a mtg now scheduled at 1630, don’t miss it!”
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we all know the csm has the experience, the seniority to express himself . but to do so publicly undermines the respect, or not, for the chain of command . the csm lost emotional control of himself and should be, privately, accountable for it . but how is the damage going to be controlled ?
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I've seen it happen in the Corps. Generally the Sergeant Majors would do that in front of anyone. He'd take the young Lt. aside and tell him what he'd done wrong. And in every case I've seen the Lt. was smart enough to just say "Thank you Sergeant Major. Fact is neither one of the needs to turn it into a pissing contest.
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First I do not think a CSM would ever do that in view of any other soldier... Second, whatever reason the CSM has for admonishing the LT, the proper way would have been to bring the issue uo to the superior commander as I do not know of an LT position that would have a CSM as the enlisted member. In the Infantry for example a CSM is a Battalion Rank, and any LT would be a low-level Staff member at best with a chain of command of several levels between the Battalion Commander who the CSM is assigned to.. So taking the issue to the LT's immediate superior would be the proper way to deal with it... I have many associates today that were Major, Lt Colonel & Colonels, as well as many CSM's and they all agree with this...
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I knn my own it’s late, a LT would never try to lock up a CSM. As you said, a CSM should mentor a LT not lambaste them. Just as every LT will have an office call with the CO, so should they with the CSM just before or after. This should never happen from either front.
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ALWAYS Reprimand in private Praise in Public, be professional, never get personal and keep a lid on your temper.
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I did 22 years. Left as a SFC. Unless there is a safety issue being broken, neither should “ be chewing one another” in front of troops. Both lose respect by not handling the situation professionally. “IF” there is a safety issue with a weapon or truck a short burst is needed. Troops get the wrong idea that yelling is proper & professional, when it is neither. Calling one to the side for other than a safety issue and stating “Let us discuss this at another time in private”. Is professional protocol. I NEVER saw nor heard of a CSM and a LT having a confrontation. CSM has close to 2 decades of military training under their belt. They are held to a very high standard to wear than rank.
LY May have been previous Enlisted and knows how much the CSM has gone through to become CSM, highly respected by all enlisted. I never heard one ever yelling. Troops do not usually screw up around that rank.
SFC served proudly 1992-2015
LY May have been previous Enlisted and knows how much the CSM has gone through to become CSM, highly respected by all enlisted. I never heard one ever yelling. Troops do not usually screw up around that rank.
SFC served proudly 1992-2015
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Never known ANY Lt to lock up an E-9 at any level. If an E-9 is chewing out an Lt it’s probably because they deserved it. That would never happen to a CMSgt in the AF.
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