Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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never saw it that way but in iraq i saw a csm get out of his vic and try to tell a major how to travel with his convoy csm still directing traffic my guess
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Professional soldiers are all beholden to each other and are expected to help (or correct) each other to maintain high army standard. I have seen CSM’s and 1SG’s who were wrong on a topic and/or “out of uniform” (same with Generals and COL’s as well). Just as I would expect them to straighten me out on a bad day, they should also expect that I would straighten them out so they are not embarrassed in front of their troops or peers. The key to the whole thing is how, where and in front of whom. In your scenario, the CSM would be in the wrong to disrespect an officer (whether in front of his troops or his peers) just as the officer would be wrong to embarrass the CSM with public correction. When I moved from enlisted to officer, the 1SG in my first tactical company was awesome at “mentoring” me without disrespecting my rank, and I can honestly say that I never had to call him out on a mistake during my time in that company. But I have pulled aside other senior NCO’s and officers over the years and was always careful to do it respectfully and privately. And I demanded the same from them. YES, had a CSM disrespected me, I absolutely would have locked his ass up right there in front of the troops as a reminder that I am senior to him and the troops work for me. As to taking an ass chewing from my battalion commander, if I deserved it, I’d take it and be happy… but I wouldn’t deserve it in the case where his CSM was disrespectful… and I wouldn’t take that. As a 1LT I relieved my Battalion commander and CSM, duct taped them and hauled them to higher headquarters. Officers and NCO’s should be more worried about the army than their own career.
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I was a young Lieutenant in the 7th Infantry Division (Army), with seven years (7) of NCO service in the US Navy/Marine Corps (Corpsman).
We lived in the field as an Army light infantry unit; our deployments to NTC or Fort Hunter Ligget in California were brutal for our soldiers, but needless to say, like Sun Tzu stated, "The More You Sweat in Training, The Less You Bleed in Combat." It was painful, but I have never known that any of my platoon's soldiers have lost their lives in a battle.
In my company, the 1st SGT, a Veteran of Vietnam, controlled the company's NCO by fear. His booming voice when addressing an NCO will paralyze them. However, NCO's discipline was maintained, and daily tasks were accomplished. Our brutal days in the operational field were like seven days and one day of rest.
After leaving the operational area and going to a day of recovery in one of those field training deployments, our 1st SGT wanted to keep my NCOs taking care of business, which could have waited for the next day. I protested and got a disrespectful comment in front of my soldiers, to which I immediately responded with a polite, rude response. My company commander talked to me about the incident, and I answered that I could not tolerate disrespect from an NCO, no matter his rank; that was the end of the interchange, and from then on, the 1st SGT was in the neutral zone, at least with me. Bottom line is that he has not the authority to disrespect, neither the rank.
CSMs are in a different league, they are really mentors to NCOs and Officers; I have never seen a high-ranking NCO diminished an NCO or an officer in my 30 years of a military career.
I know that the military is not a democratic subculture, but human dignity is applicable across all fields of human endeavors. Although respect is a two-way street (you respect me, and I will respect you), we must keep our correct political way of interacting with our soldiers and officers. Follow your chain of command.
We lived in the field as an Army light infantry unit; our deployments to NTC or Fort Hunter Ligget in California were brutal for our soldiers, but needless to say, like Sun Tzu stated, "The More You Sweat in Training, The Less You Bleed in Combat." It was painful, but I have never known that any of my platoon's soldiers have lost their lives in a battle.
In my company, the 1st SGT, a Veteran of Vietnam, controlled the company's NCO by fear. His booming voice when addressing an NCO will paralyze them. However, NCO's discipline was maintained, and daily tasks were accomplished. Our brutal days in the operational field were like seven days and one day of rest.
After leaving the operational area and going to a day of recovery in one of those field training deployments, our 1st SGT wanted to keep my NCOs taking care of business, which could have waited for the next day. I protested and got a disrespectful comment in front of my soldiers, to which I immediately responded with a polite, rude response. My company commander talked to me about the incident, and I answered that I could not tolerate disrespect from an NCO, no matter his rank; that was the end of the interchange, and from then on, the 1st SGT was in the neutral zone, at least with me. Bottom line is that he has not the authority to disrespect, neither the rank.
CSMs are in a different league, they are really mentors to NCOs and Officers; I have never seen a high-ranking NCO diminished an NCO or an officer in my 30 years of a military career.
I know that the military is not a democratic subculture, but human dignity is applicable across all fields of human endeavors. Although respect is a two-way street (you respect me, and I will respect you), we must keep our correct political way of interacting with our soldiers and officers. Follow your chain of command.
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I have some personal, applicable experience on this one...right or wrong, ya'll be the judge. I was a division officer on a warship going through the Yards. Those who have done it, know that July/August in VA can be hotter than the front porch of Hades. As the aviation DIVO, I spent a lot of time on the deck, and a lot of time with my sleeves rolled up. Didn't help that I had recently lost my Leading Petty Officer (the one I had deployed with the year prior), and had a new (young) Department Head who was still picking up the ropes. In short, I was fairly "hands on" at that time, morale was low, and everyone needed a break. We also got a new CMC; an HMCM. I wouldn't take anything away from that man's professionalism... frankly, he was a super NCO who legit cared for his Blue Shirts, and took time to answer questions from green officers. Granted-he was a little "clean cut" for Amphib "culture"... but looking back, I think that was to all our benefit. Anyway... one day, Master Chief is walking his spaces when he encounters young Mr. Gillespie meeting with his shift leaders to discuss the day's work. My seated position afforded the CMC a glance at the white athletic socks (worn under thin black uniform socks) in my boondockers... an attempt to limit slippage/blisters as I crawled around the oven-like ship. He tersely called me out in front of what constituted 2/3rds of my enlisted leadership... without so much as really asking to interrupt. The guys sweated bullets... I stood at attention. With my brain choking back my youthful, ungoverned rage... I calmly and respectfully asked the CMC if I could speak with him outside at his convenience. He agreed... and I calmly explained how much he genuinely held my respect...and how concerned I was that he had just undermined mine. I stood there waiting for my life to end... but it didn't. He shook my hand, stated that actually, I was right... and that I should change my socks ASAP. I did.
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BLUF: I've never seen anything that closely resembled those much misaligned "stories".
In 28 years of service in combat arms units, training commands, DLA, those stories are as common as the ones I heard when I got to Coleman Barracks in (then) West Germany in 76. 21st Rep Bn would warn everyone about the story of an MP getting put in a locker and thrown down the stairs or out of a window.
I have been part of some briefings/meetings or any other semi-private gatherings where a Senior or Staff NCO (E-6 or above) have had very terse, albeit brief, words with 01s, 2's and 3's. If someone in authority whether it was the senior NCO or Commissioned in the room with or without 620-1 authority usually monitored the encounter and let the words flow as long as they weren't insulting. Yes a few times the CO, BN, BD, CG CDR, would occasionally step in and say words to the effect of "the 1SG, SGM is speaking AS me" watch your lane or "hey Sergeant Major, I gave CPT Snuffy that directive and forgot to tell you. I can't recall any of those moments dragging out for more than a few minutes and stayed in that room and sometimes with apologies and handshakes putting it to rest. Yet IF a Sergeant Major initiated some sort of "ass chewing" to a Jr Officer or vice versa in a public venue then the adult in the room would immediately say "let's head to the CO, BN, BD, HQ" and start walking right then. There would be no "locking up".
That's my 2 pfenning's worth.
In 28 years of service in combat arms units, training commands, DLA, those stories are as common as the ones I heard when I got to Coleman Barracks in (then) West Germany in 76. 21st Rep Bn would warn everyone about the story of an MP getting put in a locker and thrown down the stairs or out of a window.
I have been part of some briefings/meetings or any other semi-private gatherings where a Senior or Staff NCO (E-6 or above) have had very terse, albeit brief, words with 01s, 2's and 3's. If someone in authority whether it was the senior NCO or Commissioned in the room with or without 620-1 authority usually monitored the encounter and let the words flow as long as they weren't insulting. Yes a few times the CO, BN, BD, CG CDR, would occasionally step in and say words to the effect of "the 1SG, SGM is speaking AS me" watch your lane or "hey Sergeant Major, I gave CPT Snuffy that directive and forgot to tell you. I can't recall any of those moments dragging out for more than a few minutes and stayed in that room and sometimes with apologies and handshakes putting it to rest. Yet IF a Sergeant Major initiated some sort of "ass chewing" to a Jr Officer or vice versa in a public venue then the adult in the room would immediately say "let's head to the CO, BN, BD, HQ" and start walking right then. There would be no "locking up".
That's my 2 pfenning's worth.
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You don't berate an Officer in public
You don't berate an NCO in public
That is why they have privates
You don't berate an NCO in public
That is why they have privates
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I have never seen any Enlisted chew out an officer in public. And YES it would be wrong for the CSM to do so. He should meet with him in private. And the CSM should have been put on the carpet and put in his place and how u properly do things.
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Unless life or mission is at risk, both are wrong.
Correction at that level is done discretely.
Correction at that level is done discretely.
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There's a time and place for an ASS chewing. You praise in public, criticize in private
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Saw it once, and you seldom see a CSM without the BC being nearby. So of course the BC wanted to know why his CSM was in the position he was in. I didn't stick around, not my business.
Additionally I had a cadet try to get me to salute them. I did not, and told the cadet to get some time in or some actual rank and try again. The cadet was insistent, and this brought the attention of a nearby MAJ who was passing through. The cadet did not have a good time after that.
Additionally I had a cadet try to get me to salute them. I did not, and told the cadet to get some time in or some actual rank and try again. The cadet was insistent, and this brought the attention of a nearby MAJ who was passing through. The cadet did not have a good time after that.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
In the best units I was in, I rarely saw the BC and CSM together, except at formations or staff meetings.
BC and CSM should be two mouths with one voice / four eyes with one brain. Putting both mouths /sets of eyes in the same location is a waste of the second mouth / set of eyes.
BC and CSM should be two mouths with one voice / four eyes with one brain. Putting both mouths /sets of eyes in the same location is a waste of the second mouth / set of eyes.
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The CSM has neither the rank nor the authority to do that. It only makes me wonder how he got his rank in the first place. Frankly I've never heard of that happening.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
CSM most definitely has the authority. CSM is *the* keeper of the standard. (S)he has the authority to correct anyone and everyone within their sphere of influence.
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According to regulations, yes they are. However, any LT that doesn't immediately realize that the CSM has the ear of his chain of command and locks up that CSM really shouldn't be in the military.
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I've had a few behind closed door discussions with some junior officers. The conversation began with "may I speak candidly" and when permission was granted, I expressed my dislike on whatever the subject happened to be. I found this to be most fruitful over the years of my career. I would never call out anyone, officer or enlisted, in public. I certainly wouldn't appreciate being treated that way and would never subject anyone else to that type of treatment. Anyone who feels the need to conduct themselves in this manner are only stroking their own egos.
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I have never seen a 2nd LT that had the guts to say one word back to a CSM when he was called out, except, "Yes CSM" and moved out smartly.
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Chew outs aren't supposed to happen in public. Ever. Say something if you have to be be quick and tactful, then light them up in private if necessary.
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This scenario is one of those campfire stories that gets passed around, but likely never actually happened. In the daily business of the Army, a CSM and LT have little opportunity to interact, let alone get into some serious brouhaha such as public displays of temper or power. Just doesn't happen.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir,
The Army I experienced - having retired a little over 4 years ago - CSMs were out and about on a regular basis, and interacted with all ranks from PVT to COL pretty much every day.
Additionally, there are plenty of LTs running around a BN staff, which gives a CSM PLENTY of opportunity to find an ate up LT.
As for the campfire story thing, read through the thread. Plenty of folks relaying their story.
The Army I experienced - having retired a little over 4 years ago - CSMs were out and about on a regular basis, and interacted with all ranks from PVT to COL pretty much every day.
Additionally, there are plenty of LTs running around a BN staff, which gives a CSM PLENTY of opportunity to find an ate up LT.
As for the campfire story thing, read through the thread. Plenty of folks relaying their story.
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LTC Denis Sullivan
SFC Casey O'Mally Yes, I suppose you're right. I never had the pleasure, (or horror) of witnessing it myself. Usually someone got to the LT before it got to that stage, and I have never seen a CSM initiate it. HOOAH!
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Never saw such a situation. Maybe because of the professionalism of the NCOs or the fact they knew as an officer i 'would' listen to correction. As a new Mortar Platoon Leader, i had been used to dealing with one of my Squad Leaders, (Platoon Sergeant was on leave) then later, i told the squad leader to do someth8ng involving the entire platoon. The platoon sergeant took me asisde and informed my of my mistake. I apologized to him and then publicly informed the platoon i had been mistaken in my earleir approach.
In a later time, i heard a commotion in the orderly room. As the then company commander, i stuck my head in. My first sergeant said "NCO business sir." I turned around, walked out and closed the door.
In a later time, i heard a commotion in the orderly room. As the then company commander, i stuck my head in. My first sergeant said "NCO business sir." I turned around, walked out and closed the door.
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As an LT that served as a Platoon Leader in an an Airborne Infantry, I find this to be quite the urban myth.
You see, any Junior Officer worth his weight will acknowledge the fact that NCO’s run the military. Infantry Officer’s normally have a fair amount of respect for their NCO counterparts—much in part because of our interactions with quality NCO’s in IBOLC and Ranger School, where rank does not matter.
I’ve been chewed out by my Company First Sergeant for a mistake that I clearly overlooked from one of my Squad Leaders during the patrolling portion of one of our field training exercises. I’ve got to say that instead of getting my feelings hurt, I was actually humbled by the fact that this NCO cared enough about me to make the correction in the first place.
I would NEVER, in a million years, even fathom trying to lock up anyone over the rank of Sergeant, even for the most egregious of mistakes—much less a Command Sergeant Major. This is the quickest way to find yourself in the S3 shop, filing paperwork and fetching coffee for the Ops NCO’s.
Look, I’ve seen Captains get their assess handed to them by senior NCO’s and for good reason. If the LT got chewed out, it was probably for good reason—move on and learn from this experience. There is mutual respect on both sides and I think most would agree.
When I was in the National Guard though, I did wear a Cadet rank. Being in an Infantry Battalion, we were often confused with Officers and NCO’s since most of the soldiers had never interacted with cadet before.
Here, where the rules were blurred. I often had NCO’s try to assert their rank on me, with little to no results.
As a Cadet, you were truly the gray man. The commands of “push”, and “beat your face” did nothing more than signal any wondering Cadet to leave the area immediately—often with much success.
The NCO’s eventually got clever though, and often had the XO’s conduct their smoking sessions of us as a weird Officer privilege not found anywhere else in the Army.
All in all, good times!
You see, any Junior Officer worth his weight will acknowledge the fact that NCO’s run the military. Infantry Officer’s normally have a fair amount of respect for their NCO counterparts—much in part because of our interactions with quality NCO’s in IBOLC and Ranger School, where rank does not matter.
I’ve been chewed out by my Company First Sergeant for a mistake that I clearly overlooked from one of my Squad Leaders during the patrolling portion of one of our field training exercises. I’ve got to say that instead of getting my feelings hurt, I was actually humbled by the fact that this NCO cared enough about me to make the correction in the first place.
I would NEVER, in a million years, even fathom trying to lock up anyone over the rank of Sergeant, even for the most egregious of mistakes—much less a Command Sergeant Major. This is the quickest way to find yourself in the S3 shop, filing paperwork and fetching coffee for the Ops NCO’s.
Look, I’ve seen Captains get their assess handed to them by senior NCO’s and for good reason. If the LT got chewed out, it was probably for good reason—move on and learn from this experience. There is mutual respect on both sides and I think most would agree.
When I was in the National Guard though, I did wear a Cadet rank. Being in an Infantry Battalion, we were often confused with Officers and NCO’s since most of the soldiers had never interacted with cadet before.
Here, where the rules were blurred. I often had NCO’s try to assert their rank on me, with little to no results.
As a Cadet, you were truly the gray man. The commands of “push”, and “beat your face” did nothing more than signal any wondering Cadet to leave the area immediately—often with much success.
The NCO’s eventually got clever though, and often had the XO’s conduct their smoking sessions of us as a weird Officer privilege not found anywhere else in the Army.
All in all, good times!
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Any Officer worth his weight.... therein lies the crux, sir. I have met many an officer not worth their rifle's weight, let alone worth their own.
Now, I will say that despite the number of lousy Officers I have met, they are *still* in the minority - and by a large margin. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
Now, I will say that despite the number of lousy Officers I have met, they are *still* in the minority - and by a large margin. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
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