Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
As a junior Officer, I was corrected by 1SGs and CSMs a handful of times — I thanked them. They were respectful and doing the right thing by correcting me.
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That should not be done publicly. The CSM obviously has much more experience than the LT, but you cannot undermine and or embarrassed the LT.
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One thing I had encountered was stopping an Army Brigadier General for a very excessive speed in the Military family housing area. (No, He didn't even live there) I was polite of course despite His lip service and knew at that point some senior Army Officers had and attitude towards Army MPs and thought they could intimidate them with their rank. I informed Him He was on an Air Force Base and that might work on an Army post but not here. I also knew We had an Officer within my chain of Command that actually would take Him into custody with the full backing of the Base Commander. Once I made those issues clear the only issue now was the speeding. don't make it worse than it has to be He changed His attitude. I then issued Him a DD Form 1408, Armed Forces Traffic Ticket for Speeding, 48 MPH in a 15 MPH zone in the housing area.
Another example was being in charge of a shift an Air Force Full Colonel entered the Security Police Desk with a belligerent, abusive attitude. I politely told Him, Sir, first You need to calm down, get control of Yourself then tell Me what the issue is otherwise You can leave right now He calmed down, I had Him show Me the ticket which he did. He was going 58 MPH in a posted 30 MPH zone. I politely and firmly informed Him that the man that wrote this ticket has worked for Me for over two years as far as I'm concerned if He said You were doing 58 MPH in a 30 MPH zone You were and if You think I'm going to kill the ticket, I'm not in fact I'm going to walk it through and make sure its processed. That was the end of that contact and He left and Yes i did make sure it was processed. My troop Who wrote the ticket wasn't in the room but behind the desk area, not in view of the Colonel and remained quiet and heard the entire exchange and sure knew I stood up for Him.
I made it a practice to address everyone as Sir or Mam and show proper respect enlisted or commissioned, one stripe or even Flag Officer ranks. Then We only had the issue before us and didn't have added issues. We were trained to have a firm but impartial attitude in the discharge of our duties and I knew I had the full support and backing of those Senior in the chain of Command to Me. I also always started by telling them why they were stopped or being detained or interviewed prior to even asking for any credentials and so did all of us. They did have a right to know that. I never picked on anyone because of rank or was intimidated by them, the issue was the violation, nothing else. I didn't always write anything but give Me an attitude You may get a ticket I would not have issued otherwise.
One Captain I stopped for speeding had such an attitude My supervisor, a TSgt, wrote a DD Form 1569, Incident /Complaint Report. for Conduct unbecoming and Officer under the UCMJ. The Base Commander read it, called that Captain to His officer, brought Him down to the Security Police Officer Himself and made the Captain say He was sorry for His bad behavior to Me and also told that Captain in front of Me "We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are a disgrace to Your uniform, as far as I'm concerned all these Security Police are superior to You and if You even son much as sneezed after this I'l rip Your Captains bars off " He also gave Him a direct order "The next time You address a Security Policeman You will address Him as Sir, everyone one of them is Superior to You !"
Another example was being in charge of a shift an Air Force Full Colonel entered the Security Police Desk with a belligerent, abusive attitude. I politely told Him, Sir, first You need to calm down, get control of Yourself then tell Me what the issue is otherwise You can leave right now He calmed down, I had Him show Me the ticket which he did. He was going 58 MPH in a posted 30 MPH zone. I politely and firmly informed Him that the man that wrote this ticket has worked for Me for over two years as far as I'm concerned if He said You were doing 58 MPH in a 30 MPH zone You were and if You think I'm going to kill the ticket, I'm not in fact I'm going to walk it through and make sure its processed. That was the end of that contact and He left and Yes i did make sure it was processed. My troop Who wrote the ticket wasn't in the room but behind the desk area, not in view of the Colonel and remained quiet and heard the entire exchange and sure knew I stood up for Him.
I made it a practice to address everyone as Sir or Mam and show proper respect enlisted or commissioned, one stripe or even Flag Officer ranks. Then We only had the issue before us and didn't have added issues. We were trained to have a firm but impartial attitude in the discharge of our duties and I knew I had the full support and backing of those Senior in the chain of Command to Me. I also always started by telling them why they were stopped or being detained or interviewed prior to even asking for any credentials and so did all of us. They did have a right to know that. I never picked on anyone because of rank or was intimidated by them, the issue was the violation, nothing else. I didn't always write anything but give Me an attitude You may get a ticket I would not have issued otherwise.
One Captain I stopped for speeding had such an attitude My supervisor, a TSgt, wrote a DD Form 1569, Incident /Complaint Report. for Conduct unbecoming and Officer under the UCMJ. The Base Commander read it, called that Captain to His officer, brought Him down to the Security Police Officer Himself and made the Captain say He was sorry for His bad behavior to Me and also told that Captain in front of Me "We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are a disgrace to Your uniform, as far as I'm concerned all these Security Police are superior to You and if You even son much as sneezed after this I'l rip Your Captains bars off " He also gave Him a direct order "The next time You address a Security Policeman You will address Him as Sir, everyone one of them is Superior to You !"
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
We did have one 2Lt get a bit carried away, and an Old SMSgt had a short talk with him and He learned and was fine after that.
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I have never seen a SMJ or CSM go ape on on a jr O. I have seen a "quiet discussion" in various stages, however.
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SPC Mark Stevens
To put this into context, my mother was a 1Sgt in NG (full time) and was married to a reserve CSM (different brigade), and I got to witness quite a bit of interaction on all sorts of levels before I ever enlisted. Neither one of them ever lost their professionalism while dealing with officers of all ranks, even when faced with... egregious circumstances. They were my role models for conduct.
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I have not idea if that's ever actually happened ... but I have never known a CSM to do that to another Sergeant, let alone to an officer, even a butter bar.
One CSM did respectfully interupt a 1LT and said, "Sir, sorry to interupt ... I have some info you need. Can you come with me for a moment?" I have NO idea what they discussed, but when the 1st LT returned, he modified what he was telling his Platoon. (I was in an adjacent formation next to them. Never gave it a htought until I read the original question and now wonder if that's what the CSM was doing - TACTFULLY correcting that LT's comments. Yes, it was a FIRST LT ... not a butter bar.)
One CSM did respectfully interupt a 1LT and said, "Sir, sorry to interupt ... I have some info you need. Can you come with me for a moment?" I have NO idea what they discussed, but when the 1st LT returned, he modified what he was telling his Platoon. (I was in an adjacent formation next to them. Never gave it a htought until I read the original question and now wonder if that's what the CSM was doing - TACTFULLY correcting that LT's comments. Yes, it was a FIRST LT ... not a butter bar.)
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In the Navy, as senior leaders we always preach "praise in public, reprimand in private" and that's the way I always conducted business. The exception to this is for safety reasons, and I would never hesitate to do that if there is an unsafe situation which threatens lives. The CSM was definitely in the wrong and it diminishes his effectiveness and could undermine unit morale because everyone would be afraid to fail and that's not leadership.
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I've never seen it, personally...even when I was on Command staff with six SMs and one CSM in one building. That said, none of them would've ever undermined an officer's authority like that. It would've presented the opportunity for a ripple effect that would've cause more problems than it would address. With every pillar chief being a colonel, the SM/CSM would've taken officer matters to "officer country".
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I am assuming this is strictly hypothetical. If the LT is doing something that is blatantly against standards or discipline then the CSM has every right to make the correction.
I've never seen or heard of an LT "lock up" a CSM. It's laughable and any LTC would end that LT upon hearing of it....
Maybe there are some bad apple CSMs but "hypothetically"....I've never seen one so out of place that a LT rightfully would "lock them up"
I've never seen or heard of an LT "lock up" a CSM. It's laughable and any LTC would end that LT upon hearing of it....
Maybe there are some bad apple CSMs but "hypothetically"....I've never seen one so out of place that a LT rightfully would "lock them up"
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LTC Christopher Hills
The professional NCO corps has come a long way in the last 3 decades. Most with some college degrees and much additional training about leadership and human interactions. It was not always so, there was a time when NCO’s yelled and thumped and abused authority if not regularly, at least often enough. When I first joined the army in the 80’s, the senior NCO’s were draftees and Vietnam vets. I didn’t know any with college and several without a Highschool degree. I am proud of how the army steered through those waters but more importantly how the improved the situation leading to the professional interactions you see today. As helpful as the NCO corps was to me over the years, I am sure their partnership for commanders is even better today.
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Unless the LT is creating a clearly dangerous situation that requires immediate action, there is no way he/she should be publicly chewed out by anyone.
That being said, in your scenario the CSM was wrong. The LT could have earned major cool points by simply ordering the CSM to proceed to the company office for further discussion.
I never saw a senior enlisted publicly chew on a LT, but I have explained to several young pilots how the damn aircraft actually works.
That being said, in your scenario the CSM was wrong. The LT could have earned major cool points by simply ordering the CSM to proceed to the company office for further discussion.
I never saw a senior enlisted publicly chew on a LT, but I have explained to several young pilots how the damn aircraft actually works.
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While in Desert Storm we were setting up Camp Doha for the units to come in and relieve us DONT know what happened but are 1Sgt and Co XO were literally at each other’s throat it was broken up before it got bad but it was infront of a bunch of soldiers. Don’t know anything after that.
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Yes, the CSM is definitely wrong. Take the LT aside and provide him or her with the reason for the "come to Jesus" counseling. Shake hands and do not dwell on the situation. If this recurs, then you may want to dig out a counseling statement and document the hell out of it. I've seen a former sergeant rip another former sergeant a new one in front of a group of folks. I'd never work for that sorry S.O.B (sweet old buddy) again!!!
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It can get worse. Imagine the CO wants a measure of the new LT. He orders his CSM to find some trivial infraction, and ream the LT a new one for it. The CO wants to see what happens. This occurs to me, as something a CO could do. Is this something that might actually happen?
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SFC Casey O'Mally
That seems a bit underhanded and duplicitous to me, but then again, I have never been a CO. And I think it *would* give the CO a great deal of information about the LT in one small snapshot.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Army life, as I understand it, is anything but gentile or sometimes even fair. Commanders face difficult decisions. Getting a quick small snapshot might be what is required. Not all the time, maybe even not often. But Commanders sometimes need this information. Now.
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LTC Christopher Hills
No CO with any leadership ability would ever do that. I’ve known a few officers that might do that, but shame on them and any CSM that would play the game. I can’t (and never did) abide by bad leadership in either the NCO or leadership channels. If you work for me, I’m going to demand the most from you. If I work for you, I am going to do whatever it takes to make you successful. But I set high expectations for those who worked for me, my peers and those above me. If you lead, I’m there to back you at whatever level. If you are a chicken shit rank chasing game player who screws with troops, expect that I will relieve you… regardless of whether you work for me or I work for you are we are peers.
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Who comes up with this crap. Could've...would've...should've. Reading these stupid-ass BS stories and gotcha crap is so unprofessional and unbecoming, it make the whole site irrelevant.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Chief,
I have this or similar stories many times in NCO circles. I have myself seen it a couple times (but only a couple over 20 years).
It was thrown out there for discussion of the right way and wrong way to handle this type of situation - which many have done. There is no "gotcha" involved.
I have this or similar stories many times in NCO circles. I have myself seen it a couple times (but only a couple over 20 years).
It was thrown out there for discussion of the right way and wrong way to handle this type of situation - which many have done. There is no "gotcha" involved.
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No matter what the rank shows, a CSM has a lot more power that some butter bar. He may be an officer, but if he thinks the CSM is just an normal enlisted man, he is dad wrong. A butter bar is still wet behind the ears and has a lot to learn before he can become a real leader. It is always a good idea to listen to the "advice' of a senior enlisted. IMHO
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CWO3 William Hanrahan
Tell that to the Lt that was once a Gunny. I've worked with fine Lt's. Show me a jacked-up Lt, and I'll show you plenty of jacked-up NCOs and SNCOs.
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SGT Jeff Everhart
No CSM should ever be yelling or belittling a junior officer in front of anyone. If I were a junior officer and a CSM treated me like that in such a manner, there would be hell to pay.
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Piss poor behavior from the E-9. As senior NCOs, particularly first sergeants and CSM/CCMs, we need to help these young officers grow. Publicly belittling is the opposite of that. As a first sergeant I chewed on many a young officer, even my commander, but only I public and only in the e spirit of making them better officers.
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While I was in I never saw a CSM chew out an LT but I have seen him pull the LT out and explain to him where he went wrong. The LT was smart enough to understand that he was wrong. But I retired in 1990 maybe we were a different breed.
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Never in from of the troops or public. Always one on one. That goes or an NCO or officers subordinates as well. Except would be to prevent immediate physical danger. I can't Se it any other way
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