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Soldiers just completed a 32-hour mission on the road. They get to a tiny FOB in Iraq and have 12 minutes left to grab food before the chow hall closes. The Soldiers are not freshly shaved and cannot easily access their personal hygiene items therefore technically out of regulation. Would you enforce the standard and make the Soldiers immediately go shave or would you not enforce the standard and let the Soldiers go eat?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 116
Does anyone even know all of the regulations? I do know that there are many that do near nothing but study ARs, but there are so many, and so many that contradict each other, that there is literally no choice but to use common sense, especially down range. Garrison being a training ground, a stricter enforcement of regulations is a necessity to advance the readiness of the unit, however, common sense should still be a factor in the enforcement process.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Interesting perspective SPC Quinn - could you give examples and cite references of where Army Regulations contradict each other?
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SPC Darby Quinn
Not having the ARs in front of me, I will have to look them up. Give me some time and I will see what I can come up with for fact, but it would only make sense that there are several that do if you look at them as a whole rather than situation specific.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SPC Darby Quinn - thanks for the quick response - I'll be awaiting the results of your research.
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They would eat. And I take responsibility for my command that they do so. I learned that by being in a program where the catch-phrase was "WHATCHA GONNA DOOOO PLLLLL?!!! We were taught to make a decision and own it
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Considering the arduous timeline required for these Soldiers to be outside the wire, for hours, days, and potentially even longer, to deny them the opportunity to eat is vulgar. Their refit time is potentially limited, perhaps only two or three hours. Between being able to shoot an email off to loved ones, grab a first hot shower in, who knows how long, and repack, to expect them to be able to wait around for the next meal, just so they can have one decent one is criminal, and a hindrance to the mission.
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I have personally experienced this exact scenario. We had been stuck on the side of the road in Fallujah in 2009 waiting for recovery assets. We had been on the road for about 10 hours when we broke down. it had been 23 hours before we were recovered and made it back to the FOB and we got to the chow hall about 15-20 minutes before closing time.
They let us in, but the power-tripping E5 made sure to stare us down and mention that we were in "soiled" uniforms and that we appeared to not have shaved. Our LT informed this young NCO that we had just come in off of the road after nearly 24 hours without sleep or relief and that we would all be cleaned up later.
If the NCO had denied access to the chow hall, I know that it would have caused him a LOT more grief in the long run. He did the right thing.
They let us in, but the power-tripping E5 made sure to stare us down and mention that we were in "soiled" uniforms and that we appeared to not have shaved. Our LT informed this young NCO that we had just come in off of the road after nearly 24 hours without sleep or relief and that we would all be cleaned up later.
If the NCO had denied access to the chow hall, I know that it would have caused him a LOT more grief in the long run. He did the right thing.
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1SG (Join to see)
I know i would have gave that E-5 a lot of grief. I have had this same problem coming off route clearness missions.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
So many NCOs on here imply how silly of a scenario this is and yet many more on here have stories of this actually happening to them. Ridiculous.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG V. Michelle Woods while I am sure that there are several stories like mine. Thank you for bringing it to light.
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Standards are just that, standard. What happens if you perform more sit-ups than needed for 100%? At times, the standards can be observed without being enforced. A soldier's life "usually" falls within the "standards" but we all know that in a fire-fight at 1700, we don't stand and salute the flag just because we hear the music. We learned that some military regs should be ignored on occasion when the US Revolutionary Forces took advantage of British tea times, musket lines, and sleeping arrangements that were compliant to the standards of the day.
Feed them smelly soldiers!
Feed them smelly soldiers!
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SFC (Join to see)
If there's a firefight and someone decides its time to lower the flag, someone needs to observe some priorities
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If a humble SPC-4 May step in and share his view, that is a very dangerous situation for whoever tries to stop them. Depending on how well folk deal with fatigue and who is telling them they can't eat, I could definitely see a physical altercation occurring.
On the more general question, standards are there for a reason, but so is the 5th principle of patrol. To give an example, we had to go to sick call in the morning if we had a medical problem and wanted it taken care of, we couldn't just walk in to the health clinic (former BN policy). I came out of a field problem with a nasty infection on my arm. I didn't notice it because I got dressed in the dark that morning and just thought it was a dumb achey pain. When I went to the clinic, I was not turned away when I explained my situation. What would the benefit have been if I was told that I missed sick call because I was in the field and didn't notice the problem? In a more extreme hypothetical, if it were a life and death situation, where following a reg would cause unnecessary harm to life or property, or not following that regulation would prevent said unnecessary harm, can you justify following it?
Anyhow, in this man's opinion, the reason that you leaders are all leaders is because you make larger decisions. It is up to you to be able to be the "HMFIC" and make decisions based on what gets the job done. In my opinion your job is not to solely be able to memorize every regulation and make sure they are followed regardless of the consequences.
If I'm wrong, please tell me. If you can't criticize, you can't optimize.
On the more general question, standards are there for a reason, but so is the 5th principle of patrol. To give an example, we had to go to sick call in the morning if we had a medical problem and wanted it taken care of, we couldn't just walk in to the health clinic (former BN policy). I came out of a field problem with a nasty infection on my arm. I didn't notice it because I got dressed in the dark that morning and just thought it was a dumb achey pain. When I went to the clinic, I was not turned away when I explained my situation. What would the benefit have been if I was told that I missed sick call because I was in the field and didn't notice the problem? In a more extreme hypothetical, if it were a life and death situation, where following a reg would cause unnecessary harm to life or property, or not following that regulation would prevent said unnecessary harm, can you justify following it?
Anyhow, in this man's opinion, the reason that you leaders are all leaders is because you make larger decisions. It is up to you to be able to be the "HMFIC" and make decisions based on what gets the job done. In my opinion your job is not to solely be able to memorize every regulation and make sure they are followed regardless of the consequences.
If I'm wrong, please tell me. If you can't criticize, you can't optimize.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
I cant criticize when you're spot on SPC Johns. As the HMFIC of this thread (haha) I say good job on understanding the importance of properly prioritizing issues that arise with troops.
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Weapon, gear, body. I would circle my unit up, sometimes the whole company, and drop blouse and uncover for chow and recovery. They would be cleaned up for the next day. That was the end of mission recovery for us.
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As an E9 overseeing dfacs standards and regulations need to be followed but there are exceptions. Any unit or person coming into a dfac straight from the field must be accommodated and allowed to eat. There is no justification in denying entry to a unit coming in from the field that doesn’t have the time or capabilities to shower shave and put on a clean uniform. As an NCO/supervisor you have to assess each situation you encounter and apply common sense in enforcing regulations. A simple greeting to the troops and direct them to an area where they can all be together while eating would have been the better response then to deny entry. However if a troop came in that had been on base for a significant time and had the capabilities of showering and putting on a proper clean uniform should be held to the regulation standard. I saw more issues with troops stationed at the base violating dfac standards than troops coming directly from the field. Think before you act. Also in the case of troops just coming in from the field, the dfac must make very effort to feed a hot meal to the troops even if it requires them to stay open longer. The dfac mission is to ensure all our troops gear a hot meal whenever possible. When not possible then an alternate meal must be offered such as box lunches or MREs.
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This kind of thing happened a couple of times to me in Iraq when we had to do long convoys and arrived with 20 minutes before the DFAC closed, not needing a shave but covered in road dirt from head to toe. They tried to turn us away for being dirty, I just asked who was in charge of the facility? If my boss outranked him it was an easy fix to have my boss ask nicely to let us in. If not my boss would call his boss and have him order the guy to feed us even if they had to stay open late. It never happened more than once at the same location. It had a lot to do with the services provided by my team. Everyone needed our help and there weren't enough of us to go around so once they found out who we were we got fed.
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