Posted on Jul 17, 2014
SSG V. Michelle Woods
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Soldiers just completed a 32-hour mission on the road. They get to a tiny FOB in Iraq and have 12 minutes left to grab food before the chow hall closes. The Soldiers are not freshly shaved and cannot easily access their personal hygiene items therefore technically out of regulation. Would you enforce the standard and make the Soldiers immediately go shave or would you not enforce the standard and let the Soldiers go eat?

With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
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CW4 Network Systems Technician
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The question is that mission needs will always dictate enforcement of standards. Take for example when I was in the Air Force we use to have recalls where a person would get a phone call in the middle of the night. The point was that we were simulating going to war. In which case the standard was you come in no showering or shaving just throw on your uniform and get to work. Once you signed in you waited for your tasks and then started to knock them out.
While standards are important it has been my experience that most standards are flexible usually by the commander. There are some that are iron clad mainly for security reasons. It is just a matter of reading and interpreting what the regulation says and that is all of the regulation. Because some will surprise you, an example of this is that in the old AFI 34-219 prior to 2007 it stated that an AF member could have a beer with "a meal" it never defined what meal and it did not define how big the beer had to be, I used this fact to get a day off of work. So it pays to read the entire regulation.
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CW3 Allied Trades Technician
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That section of AFI 34-219 was for installation commander guidelines on the deglamorization of alcohol and was by no means intended as a "back door" to perform illegal activities while on duty (i.e. consuming alcohol in the middle of the duty day, unless the function was approved to allow service members the option to do so). The same sentence was in the 1998 version. Be careful how you choose to interpret regulations, and whether or not they are meant for your level of interpretation.

Mission does not dictate whether or not a standard is enforced. If they choose to be flexible, and the regulation allows for that, along with acceptable risk being considered, well then that's an entirely different topic.
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CW4 Network Systems Technician
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Sorry about the miscommunication that was my point exactly depending on the regulation it can be interpreted in many ways one has to pay attention. The point about mission dictating is that with respect to some regulation it specifically
states at what level it can be waived.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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Presentation1
SSG V. Michelle Woods For all of those who think it is that simple.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
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This is so funny!!! And adorable :)
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CPT Senior Instructor
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I do what I can.
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PO3 Nathan Barr
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Well this is an interesting point of view, and here is my take on it:

You mention a chow hall. To me, as a veteran of Marine Corps deployments, there is no such thing as a chow hall unless you're in the rear with the gear. Such a location would not be tiny, and it would also have other amenities, in addition to the chow hall, associated with larger FOBs (midnight sandwiches, MWR, showers, etc.). In this case, they definitely need to go shave and shower. There are multiple units in these locations, and nobody wants to be known as the undisciplined gaggle. Plus, chances are approximately 100% that they will still have access to after-hours food services or MREs as a last resort.

On the flip side, and what I have experienced, if this is truly a small, forward location, there would be no chow hall. You would have a small Patrol Base being manned by half of a platoon who alternate sleep/watch/patrol schedules to maintain control over the area for which they are responsible. In this case, all they'll have is MREs, HOWEVER, even though the food would still be there after they shave, they should eat first. It is a core responsibility as leadership in situations such as this to not only maintain, but to promote morale as much as possible. The shaving will still happen. So there wouldn't be a violation of standards. It will just be delayed shortly while a group of weary Marines (soldiers, sailors, etc.) try to relax and regroup after what has been at the very least a very physically trying mission.
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SFC Signal Support Systems Specialist
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There is a happy medium between full blown FOB and Patrol base. And chow halls aren't all made to fit hundreds of people at the same time.
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PO3 Nathan Barr
PO3 Nathan Barr
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You're right. However, I am stating that in my experience, I haven't seen a forward position that had a chow hall other than a FOB. I was simply illustrating how I would handle the situation from two different perspectives. It is a multi-faceted scenario.
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CPL BamBam Mott
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I was at a FB and we had a chow room where a ugre was fixed if we had any and what little food we had was divvied out. We still called it our chow hall even though we ate under the stars.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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You let them eat. Taking care of our Soldiers should always be first priority. I would have no problem getting talked to or yelled at for this decision. I would be quick to point out the facts of the mission and tell whom ever is making the on the spot correct that they are not wrong however my guys have been out on a long mission and do to the short time frame to get them in to eat that they have been directed to shave right after eating with no exceptions.
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CPL(P) Lrs Atl
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I have actually had a similar situation when trying to get my soldiers let in the chow hall while we were on Bagram for a short period, same situation, remote cop, back to back missions, ofc soldiers coming through out of the wire are going to be a little dirty. Ofc we were turned down by the SFC in charge and we were not allowed to eat, went back with my PL, SFC came back with LTC..... We lost...
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LTC Operations Officer (Opso)
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We are all selective. I mean who really tracks down their male Soldiers to ensure that they are shaving on leave? How about when a female's hair is out of place during APFT? Do we stop them? I like to think that I have what few people seem to have at times as it is not issued by the military: common sense. Get those Soldiers to chow. You have to take care of your Soldiers. I remember when I had friends who were in Iraq and they had to go on convoys to go get hygiene products like soap. I mailed them boxes in order for him to give to his troops like a good leader that I know he was. How about the first wave of troops into Iraq? They barely had time to stop and sleep and no shelter when they did but their own vehicles. Did they shave? I bet you that most did not do it on a daily basis.
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MSG Senior Maintenance Supervisor
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I do, I insist on daily VTC with all my male soldiers while they in leave status. It's on their DA31.
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SSG Jesus Roman
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I say "HOOAH"!!!
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SGT Patrick Daniels
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Food first, shave later
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PO1 Machinist Mate
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How is this even a question? Obviously, let them eat! People first, always. I've been chewed out, I can handle it. If someone wants to question me letting someone fresh off of patrol eat because they haven't shaved, they can go ahead and take my crows.
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SPC Dennis Mullins
SPC Dennis Mullins
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You think Common Sense would kick in I hoped!
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PO1 Machinist Mate
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Yes, that's very true. The problem with the military right now is the need to mindlessly follow regulations where common sense dictates otherwise. I am not saying to question or find a work around for every single regulation, as that would let chaos ensue. However, situations like this call for the soldier/Marine/sailor/airman to let their heart decide, not a regulation. Would they let their brother or sister go hungry in order to feed their own ego?
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SFC Operations Sergeant
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You are very wrong about a few things here. Mindlessly following regulation and orders is not a problem, it is a duty bound obedience that is the result of good order and discipline. No Soldier should be letting their heart decide anything. Decisions are made by process and with regard to the mission and the integrity of the unit. This is called selfless service. Doing what you want is not. Regulations are in place for a reason and directives are executed in accordance with those regulations and command policies. It is the NCOs responsibility to enforce this and maintain good order and discipline.

Does that mean I think they should put down their forks and shave? No, I believe that grooming standards and personal hygiene are low on the priorities of work in this scenario. But it isn't for the Soldier or junior leader to decide that because his heart told him so. The problem with the military right now is there are too many free thinkers who believe their feelings supersede General Military Authority. Any leader worth their salt would be able to clearly define and execute the right thing in this scenario. Anyone who simply chooses to say screw it for the sake of having an excuse to undermine the chain of command is completely out of line and should be crushed.
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PO1 Machinist Mate
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SFC (Join to see) I believe I worded what I had said wrong. Yes, we are supposed to follow every lawful order, however like you said, the leader should do the right thing in this scenario, which would be to let his men eat. And yes, that is indeed the problem, and I am dealing with that right now with my own people. Sailors who think that their needs supersede the mission just because we're not in combat, or they're too "smart" or too "good" for the Navy.

Another point, mindlessly following orders could indeed be a problem. They have been in the past, and they will continue to be. Sometimes a servicemember has to say no, respectfully of course, to unlawful orders.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
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When we were in Iraq/Kuwait in 2003, we had water rations, so it was drink water or shave and shower with your drinking water. Which do you presume I did? I actually cursed out folks who tried to bathe with other than baby wipes for those two months invading the country all the way to Mosul. I think it was something like 37 days without a shower and 15 or so for shaving. The battalion commander and all who were "getting with it" did not have time to either.

Point is, some of my aircrew flew to Doha and were in the PX picking up things and were dressed out by a LTC for smelling and not having a clean face. The folks in Doha were not crossing the border 3-4 daily inserting troops and living in the back of a Chinook for more than 30 days. Situational awareness is key when determining to enforce or not.
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CPL(P) Lrs Atl
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That was probably one of the most logical and brilliant statements I have ever read Mr. B. An that is exactly why it doesn't make sense for the Army, it's not illogical enough. :)
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
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Thanks Burroughs, just try to call it like I see it and have lived it.
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MSG Senior Maintenance Supervisor
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Too many of us refuse to give our fellow soldiers the benefit of the doubt. Oh he is dirty and unshaven because he is a shit bag, not because his mission kept the soldier from personal hygiene. A good rule of thumb is if they are not your soldiers then mind your own business since you may not know the situation. A really good BatCom of mine used to say every soldier has a sergeant even me, in cases such as these I try to assume that the Soldiers sergeant is aware of the situation and will take appropriate action.
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CPL(P) Lrs Atl
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I completely agree with you Sir. Have been through similar situation myself. Easy to relate to.
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SPC Dennis Mullins
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Definitely Eat!
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1SG Company First Sergeant
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SSG Woods, you are confusing picking and choosing which standard to enforce, with using common sense and protecting the health and welfare of the Soldiers.

The Soldiers need to eat to be healthy, now, had they been at the FOB for a longer period of time then rushed at the last minute to get chow after messing around doing nothing first, then that may be a different story. But in your scenario, let them eat and then let them be on their way to get cleaned up and shaved.

My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind, accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. Sums it up


***EDIT***
I have read your responses talking about proving that regs should not always be enforced. Of course you will enforce the shaving regulation just not before the Soldier eats. You have priorities as a leader. To be a GOOD leader you have to know how to prioritize! All regulations matter and need to be enforced, but in this case health and welfare of the Soldiers takes priority over shaving. Both WILL be done in the end.
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SPC Dennis Mullins
SPC Dennis Mullins
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sounds logical
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
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1SG (Join to see), I feel like your explanation addresses the actual situation at hand but also reinforces how important the standard is. Like you and COL Vincent Stoneking pointed out, it's all about prioritizing.

It's unfortunate that so many folks on here have been in situations where they have experienced this. That just reinforces common sense isn't so common.
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SPC Dennis Mullins
SPC Dennis Mullins
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Definitely got your ducks in a roll!
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