Posted on Dec 30, 2015
Is it appropriate to write your own NCOER when asked to?
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I've been told a few times to write my own NCOER. To this I replied, "I will provide you with input of what I have done during my rating period, but I will not do your job for you." Because one time I had to push the issue up the Chain of Command, I received a NCOER which virtually said I could breath and was alive. I was lucky, it had no effect on my career, but I know it can happen. Again I call this poor leadership.
US Army Sergeants Major Academy (USASMA)
Sergeants Major Course
Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 32
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That is interesting SGM Mikel Dawson, several times I was asked to draft input to my awards or OERs. I always drafted the NCOERs for those NCOs who served under me.
I concur if a superior officer or NCO tells you to draft your own NCOER that is indicative of poor leadership or laziness or both.
I concur if a superior officer or NCO tells you to draft your own NCOER that is indicative of poor leadership or laziness or both.
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SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS
A majority including my retirement, so I just wrote up a arcom and called it a day. Seem to do missions and little time for myself. Got to the point of missing deadlines and wanted the process to get moving. But.. someone in my Battalion or Brigade bumped it up to meritorious medal, which I did not write.
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SSG Warren Swan
Had to write mine and another NCO's end of tour awards in the Stan. His team sgt didn't care (rotations had begun), and his OIC didn't either. He wanted him to get an ARCOM and this NCO PUT IN SOME WORK on his ETT team. I was the team sergeant for the other. I wrote his award using my bullets trying to get him a BS (he deserved it). His OIC was not having it, and wanted an ARCOM. I talked him into a MSM. The NCO got his MSM and I was proud, but when I submitted my award to 4/25, it was a BS with recommendations from my BN CDR to approve and it was knocked down to an ARCOM. I was butthurt, but I got to laugh a bit being another Soldier got a higher award using what I was going to use in mine. Sometimes you can loose but win, and that NCO is my friend to this day.
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I've done it and I was told it was good training and no one knows what you did better than you. The downside to this was the eval was still redinked, and sent back and not just for the usual corrections. I feel if I ask a Solder to write his NCOER, and he writes in there he saved 30kittens while running 12minutes during the run portion of the APFT, and he gives himself an 'excellent ', I know I'm not going to like it, but that's what I asked him to do. I can tell him to go back and reword it. He could tell me no being I tasked him to do it and heaven help me if I didn't do his counseling. I think it's a great mentoring tool, but it should be done by the rater. Or both could using the bullets the Soldier had and he and his rater go over how to use them, what they really mean, and how those 'high speed' bullets can help/harm his future career in regards to SNCO boards. Don't think they'll care about him saving 30 kittens during the run.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
SSG Warren Swan Good post Warren. I got a good chuckle on the kittens and the 2 mile bullet. I have seen some weird shit from my peers that liked to write their own NCOERs and lets say embellish just a little on the bullets.
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CW3 Jim Norris
Well said - one of my favorite mythical OER comments was - 'the only reason for this officer to continue on active duty would be idle curiosity on the part of his commander as to what he will do next'.
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SSG Warren Swan
I think the "art" of writing the NCOER is fading away. Before the world sends SEAL RANGER TEAM 007 to destroy me hear me out; when I was a young NCO there were the examples that were REALLY used from old NCOER's. My NCO's would give reasoning as to why this was this and that was that. It gave perspective on what you should really be striving for. After awhile and the internet took over, now you could go to Armystudyguide and lo and behold, NCOER bullets. Why be original when look at one that's close enough to what you "need" change a few words and BAM!! There is your "excellence" bullet. I know I was guilty of doing that on my NCOER's a few times, and had to explain it too. I think having to explain WHY I did something rather than sit there racking my mind for "good catch phrases" and "code words", made me understand it a little more. One situation that really brought the house down was at a NCODP where the SGM was talking about NCOERS (go figure). He pulls out his "example" NCOER and begins reading the bullets on it to us. There are about 40 or so NCOs from E5-E9 in the room. This SGM was reading and critiquing the bullets off another SGM's NCOER while the SGM was in the room! The reason some of us knew who it belonged to was that some of the bullets were VERY specific to what we did and our BN's mission, so there was NO doubt who it was (it was confirmed the second she left the room by her facial expression). I felt embarrassed for our SGM to have another BN's SGM blatantly disrespect her in our presence and laugh when she left. That was not the way to teach anyone by grinding an ax in front of her troops. I kinda fell off track, but long story short, they told us that the bullets were not "excellence" but "success" based on their opinions. This is NOT how to teach NCO's how to write them by degrading a fellow SGM for the hell of it and not liking her. After a two hour session the ONLY thing we learned is how to watch two SGM's disrespect one of their own in public. Writing a good NCOER takes vision on both the rater and the ratee. You have to do shit to put in there, and I know from HARD experience the "fluffer" bullets won't make it. Using the web to take a bullet also will put some crosshairs on you from your SNCO's because if you think you're the ONLY one who knows of that "site" you're dead wrong and about to find out when that red pen writes "come see me with your NCO". There was a AG SGM from DA who wrote a pamphlet on how to write a NCOER. I had that thing for years! She was GOOD, and it wasn't written in a manner that would bore you to death. We need to get back to teaching the "Art" of writing. Not sure how this will work out with the new NCOER, but the NCO's of the future need it just like we did. To my AF brethren....I HATE WRITING YOUR EVALS!! Freakin white space....gotta fill the white space. Gotta use "certain" words at "certain" times, and I was given a list of those words. Navy wasn't as bad as the AF. Don't forget "Firewall Fives"!! I would pull my eyebrows out before ever trying to write a AF eval again in life.
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I refuse to make one of my nco's write their own NCOER or award. That is a leadership fail if you are asking your nco's to do that. A support form is there for a reason and it should be used quarterly. If it is used it will help you write the NCOER. I see this far to often and it is nco's being lazy and not taking their time and giving guys what they deserve and that is good leadership.
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Unfortunate as it is, this happens way too often. Everyone who has responded would agree that this is a reflection of poor leadership and does not in any way represent the evaluation system as it was designed for. I think it is important to note that if your Rater is asking you to write your own NCOER, then the assumption is that the requisite periodic counseling is not taken place as well.
That said, if your Rater is not tracking your periodic counseling dates there is nothing that says you could "professionally" remind them that he//she has a responsibility to do so. This keeps your Rater honest and in most cases will prevent the "can you write your own NCOER?' at the end of the rating year situation.
In any case, you should always documents rating achievements throughout the year...a suggestion is that you create a word document mirroring the NCOER. This way, if your Rater is not tracking your accomplishments or not doing the requisite periodic counseling's, at least then you have a record your rating accomplishments. Also , if you have additional duties and responsibilities, make sure your Rater provides bullet comments on those as well...an area of the report that is often overlooked.
That said, if your Rater is not tracking your periodic counseling dates there is nothing that says you could "professionally" remind them that he//she has a responsibility to do so. This keeps your Rater honest and in most cases will prevent the "can you write your own NCOER?' at the end of the rating year situation.
In any case, you should always documents rating achievements throughout the year...a suggestion is that you create a word document mirroring the NCOER. This way, if your Rater is not tracking your accomplishments or not doing the requisite periodic counseling's, at least then you have a record your rating accomplishments. Also , if you have additional duties and responsibilities, make sure your Rater provides bullet comments on those as well...an area of the report that is often overlooked.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
CSM Elmer Feick Jr. Brother that is what I would do most of time. My reminder would be my page one finished for them and a bunch of suggestions for bullets. In reference to additional duties, I was taught and went by if it gets mentioned on page one it should have a bullet on page two. If not it is just some BS to make your NCOER look better.
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No. I still make my bosses counsel and write my eval. Now, I have much input to it, but I do not write it. I think it has helped me because I had an officer actually write mine instead of me writing it with the verbage that a lot of NCO's typically use. I know my NCOER's are different.
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SGM Mikel Dawson You are correct it is wrong and it is the lazy NCO/Officer that would ask you to do that. Now depending on your job or mission they may ask for certain things to put in your NCOER like how much of this did you do what were your totals in that. But that is all the NCOER is our job as leaders to do and to do properly. That is how we shape the army of tomorrow.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM Steve Wettstein - From your level why do you say that this happens as often as it does, why do we as leaders fail our soldiers that we don't give them proper ratings and have them wright there own. I would love your insight on this SGM.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
SSG (Join to see) - I believe there are two reasons. 1) Some Raters are to damn lazy to do their job. B) Some Raters do not know how to properly write a good NCOER. A lot of it has to being a professional. I didn't have people do my work and I sure in the hell wasn't going to do theirs. Back when I was a PSG I could knock out a good NCOER that only needed minor changes in a couple of hours. During the same time I saw it take my peers a week to get the same thing done.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM Steve Wettstein - sadly we don't put much time in WLC or ALC on the NCOER I have not been to SLC so I cant say about that but I would guess that they don't spend much time on it. It will take me a long time to do a good NCOER for one of my soldier. However it is worth the time to give solders a proper evaluation.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
SSG (Join to see) - I don't remember really getting into the NCOER at any of my NCOES courses. It is pretty much an NCOPD topic and a 1 on 1 teaching event. Most of the NCOs that I know that are really good NCOER writers were self and peer taught. That goes back to my earlier being a professional comment.
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It is important to give constant input to insure accomplishments are reflected.
This should be easily documented during normal counseling sessions.
With subordinates on the initial counseling we would pencil in goals and objectives to be done during the rated period. So when they were met they became bullet comments unless something of high importance or greater value could replace them.
This way when it came time to complete the NCOER or write awards it was relatively painless
This should be easily documented during normal counseling sessions.
With subordinates on the initial counseling we would pencil in goals and objectives to be done during the rated period. So when they were met they became bullet comments unless something of high importance or greater value could replace them.
This way when it came time to complete the NCOER or write awards it was relatively painless
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Writing your own NCOER is NEVER appropriate, but has been done for a loooooong time. When you have a lazy rater that don't want to take the time to do their job, it's much easier for them to have the subordinate do it and they can "proof read" it. Pathetic really.
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SGM Mikel Dawson Brother I can't count how many times I was told this. I would generally laugh at them and tell them it wasn't going to happen and that it was their job to do it. Plus I could never write one for myself, I tried a couple of times but couldn't figure it out. I would give them bullet suggestions and do all of page one. I would also proof read whatever they would write for bullets.
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