Posted on Apr 15, 2014
SFC Medical Operations Ncoic
50.1K
34
34
0
0
0
Posted in these groups: Army usa or 08a.svg 1SGArmy usa or 09b.svg CSMPushup improvement Profiles
Avatar feed
Responses: 15
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
SFC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
7
7
0
Profiles do not prevent you from leadership positions. If you are a HT/WT or APFT failure you can not serve in a position of leadership. That does not hold true for physical profiles. Once considered "fit for duty" your profile limitation no longer should have an impact on your leadership roles such as 1SG/CSM. There are certain units that do not have leaders who are on profile in those positions because of their function such as Airborne/Air Assault or elite units. The ideology behind this is there is a higher level of fitness needed and they often include upper body or endurance/aerobic such as running. Promotions Boards cannot see your pulhes.

Ultimately this is not a disqualifier but as with anything in the military. Various people have bias and/or it's your level of competitiveness as a whole. A leader is not determined by physical fitness; however, this profession does require some level of fitness.

My personal opinion, any leader who takes care of me I will put that leader on my back if I had too. As long as I know they would do the same for me and are capable of fighting through whatever pain or injury in a combat situation. Heart is much more of a indication of combat function than knocking out 90+ push ups. I can care less about that persons profile as long as it didn't affect their work/duty performance. Lead Me, Follow Me, or Get the HECK OUT OF MY WAY (General Patton).
(7)
Comment
(0)
SGT Jack Stevens
SGT Jack Stevens
>1 y
I ran into that problem a lot my last year in the Army. Even at the level the MedBoards, the SM should be present. I had 16 years in as 19D Cavalry Scout. I got told on April 1st, deployed to Iraq, that I had to be out of the Army by April 13th. So you tell me and I was under a P3 profile.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Robert Burns
3
3
0
Probably a majority of them do have P2 profiles.  LOL
(3)
Comment
(0)
SFC Military Police
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
I see no reason why not. Your profile is not an indication of leadership ability. So you can't run, well neither can some amputees but they are still great leaders.
(4)
Reply
(0)
SSG Intelligence Analyst
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y

SFC Grudzinski,

 

I believe that the wounded warriors that choose to stay in should be put in leadership positions. When you have someone that is missing an arm doing push-ups and pull-ups, its motivating. They also show that they have real heart and determination because they did not quit when they could have. Great point!

 

SSG Ryan

(0)
Reply
(0)
SGT Jack Stevens
SGT Jack Stevens
>1 y
I knew a few that had P3 Profiles.
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG Dennis Hicks
1SG Dennis Hicks
>1 y
I had a P3 for hearing :) worked to my advantage. I would be really surprised not to find a large number of SNCO's with degraded health over the years, we don't get younger :)
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGM Sgm In Transition To Civilian Life
2
2
0


SSG Greer, good question. I expected to see a
lot more debate on this. There are two popular trains of thought on this. What’s
the P2 for? Is it for something that would limit your physical abilities and
prevent you from taking all required events on the APFT, PU/SU/ 2 Mile Run?  The hard line school of thought is usually
driven by the “Lead by Example or Lead from the Front” attitude. If you are one
who truly embraces this then the simple answer is NO, an individual who can’t
meet all the standards that their Troops are expected to meet should not be in
a 1SG, CSM, or of even PLT SGT or Squad Leader Position. I’ve worked with a few
NCOs throughout my career who, when they were put on permanent profile, dropped
their retirement packet because they truly embraced this and loved their job
and decided if they couldn’t be out there running, rucking, and jumping with
their Troops then it was time for them to get out so an NCO that could do all
these things had an opportunity to move up.



The other side of that is looking at the “Whole Soldier”. Just
because a Troop has a profile that prevents them from being able to do certain
physical activities does not mean they can’t be an effective Leader. Just the
opposite, they could actually serve as an example to younger Troops who are
injured or on profile thereby giving them hope that they could make it to that
level. Another argument I have heard to support this is the reason for the
profile, did the Troop get injured in the line of duty, during a training
event, was it a combat injury? If so, then why should the Troop not be allowed
to serve in a Leadership position after all they may have been out there “Leading
from the Front and Leading by Example” and in the process of doing this they
were injured to such an extent that they now are on a permanent profile.



I have met great NCOs throughout my career who have been on
permanent profiles; I have met mediocre Leaders who were in great physical condition
so pick your opinion. The only thing I would ask is that you fully embrace it.
If you choose the Lead by Example side of this and you are ever put on
permanent profile then step aside so another NCO who can Lead by Example has
the opportunity to fill that Leadership position. Sorry for the length of the
post but this has always been one of my favorite debates.



(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Avatar feed
Is it possible for a SM with a P2 profile to hold the position of 1SG or CSM?
SFC First Sergeant
2
2
0
I do not see why not? A Leader is more than a profile in their record. Leaders should be evaluated and put in Leadership positions because of their overall contributions to the Army and their potential. I belive that at the Senior Level, CDRs and CSMs should really invest the time to assess what kind of Leaders they are assigning within their units. A profile should not affect my abilities to perform my duties if I was to hold any of those positions; therefore I should not be judged if I had a any kind of profile.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
LTC Jonathan Howell, CSEP, PMP
1
1
0
Absolutely possible. The ability to hold senior leadership positions with physical limitations even predates the increased number of Wounded Warriors. One of the best Command Sergeants Major to ever lead me had lost his right arm below the elbow during a demolitions training exercise when he was a Staff Sergeant. He still epitomizes one of the finest examples of the NCO Creed for me. From the late 1990's.

JDH
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Alan Bailey
1
1
0
<p>I always felt "Lead from the Front" I put off going and getting my back checked out till I had done my 1SG time and regret it. I probably did more damage by sucking it up for almost 8 years. I think it has alot to do with the time perod you came in the Army and the leaders you had, I would always hear them giving Soldiers alot of grief for going on sick call, so I would do everything possible to not go. </p><p>But, I think you can be a great leader with a perm. profile. I have know alot of folks that where in great physical shape but could not lead.</p>
(1)
Comment
(0)
SSG Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Operations Specialist
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
This is all true information however every boss I ever had annotated my P2 non running profile on my NCOER which is very visible and that is a huge disqualifies for promotion to senior ranks regardless of MOS
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Intelligence Exercise Planner
1
1
0

SSG Greer,

 

After 10+ years of war (and 2-3 decades in uniform) I think half the 1SGs and CSMs I know have a P2.  I have been very lucky since I am in the same age range as most of these gentlemen but haven't broken anything badly enough to need a permanent profile yet.  It's hell getting old! :)

(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG First Sergeant
1
1
0
Excellent question, and for me, quite a relevant one. I have a P2 for upper and lower body. I just recently got selected for MSG on the 2014 list and I have over 7 years to go before retirement eligibility. The odds of being placed in a 1SG billet or being selected for SGM are pretty high given the time I have remaining in the Army. All of that being said, this has been a conundrum I have contemplated numerous times. I feel that I have deployed 3 times with this profile, to include an advisor role in Afghanistan, proving that I am willing to do what the army needs me to do but, I also think a leader should lead from the front. I think it would be hard to hold a solid image with your soldiers if you can't lead them on a company run. It's very conflicting for the person for the profile.
(1)
Comment
(0)
1SG Gerald Schroeder
1SG Gerald Schroeder
>1 y
As a retired 1SG, I can speak from experience that profiles do not hinder your ability to lead from the front . I had temp profiles, a P2 then a P3, then MEB! Not patting myself on the back but within our command, 34 1SGs (if I remember correctly), I was considered to be in the top 1 percent, by the other 1SGs/CMD. Yet I carried profiles. My Soldier's respected me for doing what I could, sometimes pushing to hard, lol, but mostly for not "riding" my profile.
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Michael Hasbun
1
1
0
Edited >1 y ago
I'm inclined to think that if you've made it to that point and your body is still pristine, what deployments/ruck marches/runs have you been dodging, and how were you so succesful at dodging them?
(1)
Comment
(0)
SFC Medical Operations Ncoic
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
I don't dodge anything. I have volunteered for deployments. I have just heard throughout my career that you can't have a profile and be in those positions.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y

No one said you did. It was a hypothetical concerning a mythical "pristine" 1SG/CSM.

 

(1)
Reply
(0)
SFC Medical Operations Ncoic
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
OK. Thought you were making that statement towards me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y
No worries. A lot of the nuances of human interaction are lost in text based communication. Body language and voice inflection are a lot more imporatant than we give them credit for...
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Company First Sergeant
1
1
0
Yes
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.