Is it possible to get promoted this quickly in the Air Force? Is this typical for band members?

Rank is earned, through years of dedication and hard work...the key word here being years. How much leadership experience does she have....might I say...none! Thankfully I am retired; because the rank given to this girl, just for being able to sing, is offensive and certainly would have made me question my decision to join the Air Force.

Jealous? Apply and join the band.

Wow, a lot of people with their feelings hurt. I am an Army bandsman and don't think for one second that I didn't go through the same promotion boards, take the same PT test, attend the same leadership schools, qualify on the same weapons as other job specialties. We serve as group leaders, operation NCO's, training NCO's, and Squad leaders just like any other military unit or organization.

One would think that a SMSgt would have enough intelligence, training, education, and understanding to understand this special career field and that the pay increase is compensatory for the significant amount of time and personal money goes into maintaining their skills and equipment even before being allowed to audition for the Air Force Band. Not to mention the high degree of training and education in that skill set they require before being able to make it to their levels. How much training, years of experience and schooling, did YOU do before you were allowed to enlist at a beginner skill level of with ZERO experience in your career field? Oh none? Maybe you should work on your own educational skills as well as understand how other career fields operate before opening your mouth and proving without a doubt that being a Senior NCO indeed does not mean you know what you're actually talking about.

TSgt (Verify To See) Why give $50 bonus? You may or may not know that the Air Force does give bonuses monthly depending on AFSC. For an example, Pilots and some air crews get flight pay. Because flying aircraft may be hazardous, who knew? E.O.D. gets hazardous duty pay. Because working with explosives might be hazardous, again who knew? But did you know that fighting fires in buildings and on the same hazardous aircraft that the pilots are flying is not hazardous. That's RIGHT. According to the Air Force it's not in a pilots job decription or E.O.D. job description that's why they get flight pay or hazardous duty pay. But since it is in the Fire Protection Specialist job description to enter hazardous buildings, Aircraft or hazardous materials situations, Fire Protection Specialist are NOT entitled to hazardous duty pay or any other bonuses for performing their duty.

SFC (Join to see) -

Wow, someone who gets it!!! I am a Bandsman, although Army. We are now given the rank of E-4 upon graduation of our training school. Yes, every point you made is valid and accurate. I personally spent ten years practicing through school programs and private lessons to acquire enough skill to pass the incoming audition. How many other job specialties in the Military can say that? And you are on point as far as further promotions. It is a very small field and very tough to advance.

SSgt (Join to see) - There ARE Airmen that get thousands of dollars in bonuses for specific career fields and having specific skill sets. They have years of experience required in their field before they're even allowed to audition for the job. How much experience did you require before you enlisted into the bottom skill level of your field? None. Just like the rest of us.

The band is a part of every military, it's part of its history and traditions. Not only would you get rid of a part of the military traditions, you would not save much money. The military's budget is in the hundreds of billions and the band's budget is in the is in the hundreds of thousands. A drop in the bucket and not much of a savings compared to over all budget.

CPT (Join to see) - I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding electronic Taps! As I stated in an earlier reply, a cheap Walmart boom-box and a CD was issued to me for military funeral honors and I found it disgraceful, disgusting and unacceptable. With that being said though, if your position on cutting bands rests primarily on the two points you mentioned, allow me to address them both.
Point 1: I don't think that anyone enlists in the Army band (or any other service's band) to "hide out and avoid the rigors of real military service". I have spent time in both combat arms units and a brief period with an Army band unit at Fort Bragg and I can assure you that band members are held to the same military standards as any other soldier. Let me also say that when the 82nd Airborne Division deployed their band to a combat zone in 2009, they didn't bring their clarinets and trombones... they brought their M4 and M240B.
POINT 2: If budgetary concerns are a driving force behind your opinion, there are numerous ways in which to cut massive costs outside of the military bands. You may remember the Packard Commission from 1986 which discovered the DOD regularly paid $435 for a hammer, $600 and $7,000 for a coffee pot. Overpaying for procurement is still an issue nearly 30 years later. How much money was wasted in the Army alone by changing the uniform 2 times in 10 years? We switched from the BDU to the ACU to the Multicam at a cost of Billions of dollars. The switch from the BDU to the mint green digital pattern ACU cost an estimated 5 BILLION DOLLARS! Did the switch improve combat readiness? No. Did the switch improve concealment on the battlefield? No. How many of those officers who were released early might have been allowed to stay with an extra $5 BILLION available in the budget by NOT implementing a worthless uniform pattern only to change it yet again at massive cost just a few years later?

LCDR. Sir I disagree with you. The military has has bank forever. Plus I had 2 friends in a AF band and I would not want their work schedule. I do understand they do give rank out to certain members of a bank. I know there is a lot of strips out there.

LTC (Join to see) - Ask a group of airmen why they joined. I bet many will cite the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels as inspiring them as a kid. Far fewer will say "well, I saw someone in an Air Force uniform singing, and I knew then that I wanted to be a pilot."

SSgt Eric Evans - SSGT you can't tell me the corp puts E6 on anyone after four months? If so I still think it's wrong

LCpl . Not sure I understand your statement. If this is a slam against the PJ and Cotrollers you got it wrong. Suggest you check their training. And I think some go through Ranger School just like some Marines. I watched Marines graduate from the Rangers.

MSgt John McGowan - I exclude the pj and combat controllers from jokes because they go to hell and back with the ground troops.

LCpl Nicholas Hines - Thanks got the quick reply. Good luck on yout career. Remember, once a Marine, always a Marine.

Hahahaaaa right

If you are embarrassed to be an Airman, you can always take off the uniform. No one is forcing you to stay.

wait so if your an airman you can quit whenever you want i knew the army was lying lol

MSgt Devon Saunders - MSgt, by no means am I embarrased to be an Airman. The intended meaning of my statement is this story is an embarrassment to Airmanship as a whole.

After seeing this discussion, I now acknowledge that the bands of all respective services follow this this rank guideline. However, this music video is SUPER gimmicky.

TSgt Hunter Logan - TSgt Hunter, what a surprise to see you here.

SPC Barnes, TSgt Hunter is wrong about a great many things here. For instance, Congress has nothing to do with Military Band Programs - they approve DoD funding as a whole and authorize end strength levels. Furthermore, no military band member is giving up a six figure job in any orchestra to be in the military, especially the 19 year olds right out of Basic. Additionally, these 600 plus band members and direct support staff - and that's the Air Force Band program only - do directly impact every career field and every mission that is short on people, which today is no insignificant number. Bottom line, all of TSgt Hunter's points have been called out, debunked, and challenged on this board already and she consistently fails to back any of it up.

My advice to you in your future career is to question everything, especially from the higher ranks. Take care.

TSgt Hunter Logan - Anger, frustration? Me? LOL

Contract civilians to entertain. Soldiers should be ready for combat at all times. Bob Hope was not an E-6. LOL

AB (Join to see) - Oy dude, I hate to break it to you, but she's right. The premiere bands do have congressional approval and funding since they often works for the State Department as often as they do for the DoD. Moreover, amongst wind instrumentalists, these top military bands are more coveted than those premiere orchestras due the literature performed by these ensembles, as well as there just being more positions. An orchestra will have 5 clarinetests, tops; a band like this has around 10. 5 orchestras with 5 clarinets each, or 10 premier militaty bands with 10 spots each? It's up to the individual. And in the case of our 19 year-old E6, those top orchestras don't hire pop vocalists.

Now, about your claim of 600 plus band members and support staff, here's why that's wrong. There are only two (2) premier bands in the Air Force; the band in DC, and the band at the Air Force Academy. Those two bands combine for 100-200 members tops. Their support staff is comprised of their very own musicians. The remaining Air Force bands, of which the Air Force has about a dozen, do not come in as E6s. They have to start at E3 or E4 and promote up the traditional way.

AB (Join to see) - Apparently in the bands, it is.

Many of you are busting on the bands... but, there are other programs that promote just as quickly. For instance, the national/international level competitive athletes in all the branches do the same thing... the military does it to get the world class athletes on their teams... and it happens on the officer side as well. Highly skilled surgeons do not come in as a 2lt.

I was hoping to keep my response nice and light because there would be so much controversy over this topic. I am sure the Air Force was run a little better when it was the Army Air Corp., But we have to work with what we have.

SGT Patrick Reno - You get points for having a sense of humor. I'd like to have a beer with you one day.

Given the information that you provided all it takes is a person to try out for the band if selected then they will report and take on the rank of Tsgt. Keep reading it would seem that for them to promote within their unit it is similar to that of the ARNG. If the position above is open and they fit the bill they can be promoted. What it boils down to is the black and white so those who are upset will just have to try out themselves to get the same benefits.

Funny how NOBODY mentions the cost of living in DC. An airman's COLA won't cover a roach motel, much less an apartment within say, 20 minutes of their duty station. Car insurance is astronomically high. The cost of living alone when I was in made me do everything I could to get out of that assignment to the pentagon. Luckily, after 9 separate attempts over the years to get me in the puzzle palace, they gave up. The last one because I'd let my TS expire, and with the wait to get a TS-SCI redone, much less upgraded to where they wanted me to be, was more time than I had left before HYT (and I had absolutely ZERO desire to make E7, to the point I simply would fill in answer C on the tests each year (and still nearly made it one year, go figure). WHY? Because I was one of the top techs in my field, and I had no desire to become a damned babysitter. I was already an instructor, and a few bases would send folks tdy to me (sort of informally) to get trained. I liked teaching. I hate babysitting, and every MSgt in my career field that I'd ever met (including a few I trained as airmen) ALL wished they'd have been able to keep the same job as MSGT as they had as a tech. The hike in pay is good, of course, and you're in the "top 3", but then you have to deal with politics, prima donnas and, unfortunately, officers who think they know how to do your job better than you do, even if they don't have a flipping clue WHAT you do.

So to ENTICE a MAJCOM lower enlisted band member to come to DC, they have to sweeten the pot a LOT, simply to allow them to have even a lower class outside life (like an apartment with a roommate on the outside in a halfway safe neighborhood (since it's hard to justify a single E6 in base housing), and the cola for an airman is basically nothing. For a tech, it's a little MORE than nothing for DC. That's why base level records managers in DC are GM series fed employees, while at Offutt, they're GS-7's. (Civilian military workers who aren't contractors)

Now, I HAVE seen a 15 year CHIEF master sergeant before. One of the photographic memory guys. Promoted first time every time, golden child EPR's and at the chief level he was LESS than useless. And lack of experience was the cause, not brains, not attitude, not the will to BE a good CHIEF. And he made some very stupid decisions, when you look at it from the perspective of a 25 year chief.

Back when HQ SAC was alive, we had the SAC band, and I can tell you they DID go around to nearly EVERY SAC base and major TDY location they could hit during a year (those bases that didn't have base level bands..now ours is the STRATCOM band, though it's named the "heartland of America" band, and they really do play well. Plus they can run the full gamut from classical to current rock & roll (don't think they do rap, however..lol)

The USO definitely gets out there. I remember during the first gulf war, seeing whoever sings "GOD BLESS THE USA" (Eddie Rabbit? I forget, I'm not a country guy) and there wasn't a dry face in the crowd. I was in that theater 419 days without a break too. But the most touching thing I ever got there was a video tape of a second grade class from some little country school, singing the same song. I still have that tape too. Just addressed to "DEAR AIRMAN". I wish the guys in Vietnam would have gotten some of those videos. I know it would have meant just as much to them.

Anyway, the folks on RP who know how the services recruit athletes (Greg Louganis notwithstanding..lol), know that you have to wave SOMETHING under their noses to make up for the military side, when they can usually go anywhere they want to on a free ride. Back when I joined, we had VEAP, which was quite possibly the worst college assistance program ever to grace the planet. I went to Wentworth Military Academy, Lexington Missouri, from age 13 to graduation at 17, and was in basic training at Ft Knox before I was 18 (July 4th), after graduating in May. I was, and am, a patriot. I joined to serve my country. My family was ALL navy or marine. I went US Army first, and after having two jump accidents due to static lines ripping in half (those of you might remember that one batch was recalled back in 1985 or so via a material deficiency report. I kept both broken lines and both serial numbers were under the recall). and having life support NOT unroll the reserves to de static them (they make VERY good capacitors, and both of mine fried on deployment), I decided that the loadmasters on those 130's had the right idea. STAY ON THE perfectly running airplane. After taking the WRONG plane from Ft Benning, I would up in Greneda, and since there was only one female loadmaster in the USAF, I'm pretty sure I met TSgt Hunter Logan (and thinking that WOW, the USAF is moving up in the world..lol) on that flight, and whoever was the jumpmaster got me added to the flight after the fact (so I wouldn't be AWOL for being stupid and not finding out which tail number I was supposed to board!)

So I've been around the military a bit. And I've seen staff sergeants who should have been chiefs and chiefs who weren't smart enough to wax my race car. (When I took the ASVAB they accused me of cheating FOUR times because nobody could get 100 percent on all sections of the test. Finally on the fifth time, I purposely missed a few questions (they had a test proctor standing over my shoulders the last 3 times I took it) and I TOLD the proctor I was missing them on purpose and the correct answer, which he wrote down, which confirmed another 100% had I done it right). I've seen chiefs whose ASVAB scores were at a low of 17, and a high of 92. And their leadership skills and styles were markedly different, but BOTH were good friends and both were excellent leaders and most importantly, BUFFERS between officers and junior enlisted. And they weren't the type to have their noses so far up their commanders butts that their faces were tanned pretty dark either. I watched one of them tell off our one star base commander to the point he looked like a little kid caught with his hand in his dad's wallet.

Now, the worry of say, a band member suddenly getting injured say, in a car accident and not being able to play anymore or sing, whatever, is real, and they would probably be allowed to leave the service if they wanted to. However, if they were switched, they'd be just like ANY OTHER CROSSTRAINEE in the air force. Meaning they would have to complete 3, 5 and 7 skill level training before being put in a supervisory position, and even then, they'd still be under OJT until they could demonstrate competency in their chosen field and get signed off by their supervisor, and in aircraft trades, possibly even QA as well, if the commander requested it as a safeguard. So at least in the USAF, they'd have to demonstrate competency before being allowed a job commensurate with their rank.

I'm surprised that nobody brought up these points, as I think they're all valid (and I'm sure you'll all let me know if they aren't). For the Marines, every person in their service is a rifleman FIRST, and their primary job second (if not direct combat arms). If you look at marine history, I believe there were a few times where they got overrun, and band and forward aid/hospital staff had to fight as well.

For the Navy, everyone is a firefighter first (or damage control party) and then their primary duty (nothing worse on a ship than a fire. Unless you're on a SUB!)

For the US ARMY, we're all infantrymen first (remember in the movie PATTON when he fined the cook $50.00 for not having his leggings on?), and in the USAF, well, we're a bit spoiled, a legacy of the SAC days. I'm sure all of you have seen the "THIS SUCKS" cartoon, right? The bottom line is that we ALL, no matter what service, WANT to make a difference during our career that will be a lasting one. I did, even if I did keep getting sandbagged by my former Army buddies every time I hit the desert and got kidnapped right off the runway at Bagram (or wherever) when they saw my name on the incoming list. As military members, I've run across far too many people who hid behind "That's not my job". Someone comes to me for help, and by god I'll handle it myself, my specialty or not, or I'd escort him to whoever COULD take care of it, no questions asked. I NEVER EVER hid behind that retort, and I hope none of you have either. I run into guys I helped just ONCE, 30 years ago and they still remember my name and who I was. All because I took the time to get them whatever they needed, and they remembered that for decades after. If you leave a legacy to your service, let it be one like that. Be remembered not for your rank, but for what you DID for your fellow servicemen and your country. Because doing the right thing CAN be inconvenient, to the point of being ready to strangle someone. But if we can't be relied upon to do the RIGHT thing, then who is? Civilians? HA...unless they're former military!

And that 4 month tech sergeant is probably better at her job than you would be, even if you're a chief. And if they promoted her to E6, it's THEIR call, not ours. I'm sure there were plenty of battlefield promotions that people thought the same of. Idiots with good memories who are good test takers get promoted over those who you could verbally ask all the same questions to, and who would get them all correct, had the test BEEN verbal (some folks just choke come test time). And then the ass kissers who get firewall perf reports and medals that count for points for being the commander's shoe shine boy get promoted too. But things usually happen to marginalize those folks and they STAY in staff positions where they really can't do much harm.

Yes, its not fair to those of us who were out in subzero weather in Shemya, Alaska, working on Looking Glass aircraft, or those who were baking to death on a 160 degree ramp in a hot refuel pit turning fighters around day after day either. We too quickly forget that these are specialized positions. DO you think a linguist who was FLUENT in 30 different languages wouldn't be given some incentive to join as an intel puke? MOST of those guys qualify for MENSA, but can barely tie their own shoes (they think on a different plane from the rest of us, trust me, I've had to work with them)

Think about the law of supply and demand here. For you USAF guys, I don't hear anyone bitching about getting their re-enlistment bonuses, yet that's tax free cash (or it was ages ago), just for you showing up for work. I've seen A1C's who make MORE than their E7 supervisors do. Think that doesn't piss the E7 off, when he's in the same career field and he NEVER got a re-up bonus? Of COURSE it does! The ONLY time in the history of the USAF that my own career field got a bonus, it was for E5's, and I'd just made E6! It was only a half a point, but still, it was the principle of the thing.

EVERY service has the option to use re-enlistment bonuses for critical career fields. Want to see a career field with less than 100 people in it? USAF HISTORIAN. It's like the reserves or the guard. Someone has to retire or die for you to get promoted. I talked to our unit historian and he said the AVERAGE promotion scores were in the 98th percentile and they STILL couldn't get promoted, and yet they weren't allowed to crosstrain either!

So if you all have a problem with this TSgt, then go OUTDO her and take her spot. OUTSING her if you think you can. But if you can't do what she does, BETTER than she does, do you REALLY have a reason to gripe? Seriously people...there might be 20 examples in the DC band of this happening. Some folks are born with the skills, some learn them, some can't. I can't become a brain surgeon, nor a musician. But I can do a lot of stuff those folks can't, and so can you. Compare TSgt pay to a recording contract. See a difference in pay there? But if she wanted to SERVE HER COUNTRY in the best way she knew how, how can you get angry about that when a LOT of you did NOT join to serve your country, but for the educational benefits, lack of jobs in your hometown area, wanted to see the world, whatever. Does the rest of the military community put YOU down for the reason YOU joined? (for some it was JAIL or the military, back in the day)

If you were offered TSgt after 4 months in the service, would you have said NO? REALLY? People who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses, right?

Nuff said
Dave

so you think a doctor earned his skills but a singer or musician don't then you need your head check ask anyone who is not ok or just decent but really good to great how much time and effort it take to get there and stay there and then ask yourself if she earned it just as the doctor or lawyer did

Here is some news for you. #1 You cannot do what she does not matter how much training you get --that is what talent is and in America we pay for talent
#2 Bands are TDY about 200 days out of the year --every year for their entire career.
#3 Band members DEPLOY, and they travel to FOBs all over the AOR to play for the troops.

AB (Join to see) - You are completely and utterly wrong. Having deployed personally with band members I can tell you, most of them have Master's degrees or higher in Music Theory and would almost certainly make WAY more money on the outside. How exactly a band member a fraud exactly for getting a rank based on an an AFI regulation? Are JAGs who take the rank of Captain straight out of OTS also frauds? And band members are most certainly professional musicians, every single one of them. . Anyone can be trained to do what you do with a few months of school. That's why you are an Airman Basic. You are not special. She is special because she has a unique talent that earns her the rank of E-6. Respect that rank like you are supposed to. You better realize just how not special you are compared to other people in the world and get over your butt hurt.

AB (Join to see) - Your typical recruit to a premier band isn't 19. The average age of enlistment for these musicians is around 27. This particular Airman demonstrated that she had professional proficiency adequate to merit the promotion. Remember, she had to beat out at least 100 different applicants for one spot.

So do us all a favor, give one of these positions a shot since they just hand out the rank.

http://www.usafband.af.mil/aboutus/careers/index.asp

I'll wait.

AB (Join to see) -
The 600 you keep referencing is the entirety of the Air Force band field, to include the bands that do not start out at E6. That's how it doezn't affect the rest of the Air Force. By shutting down this band, you don't get to magically have 50 more E6 crew chiefs in other fields, those slots just go away. Once you understand how billeting works, you'll see why I'm right.

Since these musicians are joining the military to be musicians, that "personal" experience IS professional experience. If they were in a non-premier band, she would need to show musical proficiency to advance through the ranks. This particular band is exempt from those requirements since their baseline requirements for enlistment exceed the standard Air Force Band requirements for promotion.

This particular 19 year-old was a competitor on American Idol. I want to say she advanced to the semi-finals when she dropped out to take the AF gig. Moreover, she represents a statistical anomoly being that she earned her job at such a young age. But since her job only has a talent requirement, and not an age requirement, it's possible. It's extremely rare, but it has happened before.

Wah. Trust me bro, with how hard it is to get in to those top bands, the rank is absolutely earned. There are a lit of qualified individuals that want to do these musical gigs, and when a position opens up, there are usually more than 100 applicants for one slot. To have musical chops of this caliber does demonstrate future capabilities since they already possess the technical MOS proficiency of those of higher rank.

So yeah, there is room for them to come in as E6s because that's how these companies are structured. And remember, we're only talking about a total of 10 such bands in the entirety of the DoD with at most 1000 troops.

The point you make is ill-founded. How hard it is to get into any specialized field would be commensurate. If difficulty entering were a guarantee of rank, all the SEALs, Rangers, PJ's, Recon, etc., would be E-8's on graduation. Further, having the capability to get in does not demonstrate future capability - it demonstrates current capability. Simply possessing technical proficiency does not guarantee promotion in any branch.

So, while there might be "room" for them to come in as E-6's, the justification isn't there. Keep your "wah", and I am not your bro.

MSgt (Join to see) - The justification is there. In order to lure top candidates, they have to offer pay and benefits on par with professional musicians. I want to say union scale in DC for musicians is $200 an hour.

So let's take a look at this 19 year old. She's stupid young and her voice hasn't even matured yet. For females, that occurs at around 25. She's only going to get better under the tutelage of her senior musicians. So that's one of those things that we as musicians know to listen for during auditions: has this musician plateaued or does this applicant have room to improve. I wasn't sitting in on her audition so I don't know. But that's why those decisions are made by subject matter experts.

And while technical proficiency doesn't guarantee promotion, it isnrequred for promotion. I'll use the Army Bands since that's what I know. The other branches are pretty similar in terms of promotion:

To graduate Band AIT, I have to score 18 on an audition scale scored from 1-40. I go about my career, got to WLC, get my SGT stripes and now I want a rocker, so I go to BNCOC (ALC). To pass, I have to score a 26 on that same audition. I pass, I get my rocker, and now I want another rocker. I got to ANCOC (SLC) and take another audition. Now I have to score a 30. I only scored a 29 though. I get a "marginally achieved course standards" and go back to my unit. I just hosed my career progression for not being a good enough musician to merit being a Sergeant First Class.

But you are right in that this job doesn't have the dangers like SOCOM, but it is competative. These special bands perform high profile missions with little prep time. They perform at the highest levels of military professionalism and competency. It's only right that they get bumped up to E6 because of how high-profile their mission is.

And if you think it's not fair, bro, life ain't fair. So go cry somewhere else.