Posted on Feb 22, 2018
Is it realistic to believe that a teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter, using an AR-15, armed with only a handgun?
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After the shooting in Florida many people began to say arm the teachers. But they over look that a police officer was there. As a Marine I understand how difficult it is to close on and take an active shooter even with the best training and equipment. During the Dallas shooting 11 police officers was injured and another 6 was killed. Out of all the return fire none actually hit the suspect. Infact the suspect was killed by a remote control robot carrying an explosive. The reason why the suspect wasn't killed by a well aimed handgun shot is because of what we call the fog of war. When the shooting starts panic and confusion set in and the way we deal with it in the military is continually to train for those situations week in and week out. But without a third of the training people are expecting teachers to be able to identify the location of the shooter, know the movement of other armed teachers, know the movement of the innocent students and staff, close on the shooter and fire a well aimed shot without putting any students in further danger. Is that realistic?
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 489
After a series of fatal school shootings by Arab terrorists the Israeli Government mandated that ALL teachers would be trained and armed. That was in 1994 and there have been two shootings at schools in Israel since, with ONLY the terrorists dying, by being shot by teachers!!!
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A lot more realistic than if they don't have a weapon. When my daughter was in junior high, the principal was a reserve Colonel who had been active, including Vietnam. I have no doubt that there was not one day my daughter was in that school, that she was not protected. No doubt either that the Colonel and his henchmen were armed. I was never told that, but I know the man, and saw concealed carry that slipped on more than one occasion on his henchmen. I doubt if someone not of my background would have spotted it, I was a deputy sheriff at the time. By henchmen, I mean at least one retired senior enlisted and several former enlisted. They were the custodial types.
When my daughter went to the senior high, I was a little more worried. Henhouse just waiting for a weasel. Victim disarmament zone.
My point? Give school security to retired military types. Make it a condition of hiring. Much better than walmart greeter....and that would solve your issue.
And, while choice of tools matters, especially past 50 yards, one is fighting the other person, not his attachments.
Oh, and by "henchmen", just in case a civilian reads this and doesn't understand, I mean the Commander's (in this case I guess the principal) most trusted subordinates, and that would be senior NCO's. I was a henchman, I am proud of he fact that I was a good one. Not to be confused with "minions" who are a lower class of henchmen. A good minion may become a henchman if he does it long enough and is good at it.
When my daughter went to the senior high, I was a little more worried. Henhouse just waiting for a weasel. Victim disarmament zone.
My point? Give school security to retired military types. Make it a condition of hiring. Much better than walmart greeter....and that would solve your issue.
And, while choice of tools matters, especially past 50 yards, one is fighting the other person, not his attachments.
Oh, and by "henchmen", just in case a civilian reads this and doesn't understand, I mean the Commander's (in this case I guess the principal) most trusted subordinates, and that would be senior NCO's. I was a henchman, I am proud of he fact that I was a good one. Not to be confused with "minions" who are a lower class of henchmen. A good minion may become a henchman if he does it long enough and is good at it.
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SPC William Weedman
I worked briefly as a substitute custodian for our local school system. I was pretty much a potted plant, nobody paid any attention to me unless they came looking for a custodian to help them. It would be a simple process to hire former military as custodians who could do their job and if the worst happened, well perhaps it would be the almost worst thing that happened...
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Absolutely, Yes.
In addition to the deterrent value-- which is huge by itself-- active shooters are not 'good shots'-- especially the mentally disturbed children we see in school shootings. Not to belittle anyone's loss or pain, but this a**hole unloaded for 6 minutes in a crowded school hallway and ONLY 17 people were killed? That is 17 too many, but how many would it have been if the a**hole actually had a clue how to use a gun?
Taking on an automatic weapon with a handgun is wholly dependent upon 3 things: confidence, ability, and position.
Confidence-- you have to not crack under the 'fog of war'. Know your capability and rely on your training.
Ability-- You NEED to hit what you are aiming at. We do not need a bunch of bad-shots creating 'friendly fire'.
Position-- Get to where you can be effective before you make a move, or you just threw your life away and gave the shooter another gun. If I'm a teacher in a classroom, I'm not going to jump out in front of a shooter who has an automatic weapon and try to take him out with a pistol. I'm going to lie in wait with the front sight post chest-high on the door and wait until he opens it to get the first shot-off.
If he is in a hallway, I come up behind him and shoot him in the back (either from behind the door of a room he passed by or from around a corner). Active shooters do NOT cover their sixes.
Position being a key part of this-- the more armed 'good guys' there are the better. It increases the chances that at least one of you is going to be in an advantageous position at any given time which would minimize the potential loss of innocent life that would ensue while the 'good guy' maneuvered to get into a position to take a shot.
All that said: I've got a lifetime of military experience which started in the military police. I trust myself in this situation. I'm NOT suggesting that every teacher should try to gain the level of training and firearms experience necessary to be effective in these situations, but there are a lot of veterans, military retirees, former police officers, etc. who ALREADY HAVE the training and experience who are only lacking the authorization.
In addition to the deterrent value-- which is huge by itself-- active shooters are not 'good shots'-- especially the mentally disturbed children we see in school shootings. Not to belittle anyone's loss or pain, but this a**hole unloaded for 6 minutes in a crowded school hallway and ONLY 17 people were killed? That is 17 too many, but how many would it have been if the a**hole actually had a clue how to use a gun?
Taking on an automatic weapon with a handgun is wholly dependent upon 3 things: confidence, ability, and position.
Confidence-- you have to not crack under the 'fog of war'. Know your capability and rely on your training.
Ability-- You NEED to hit what you are aiming at. We do not need a bunch of bad-shots creating 'friendly fire'.
Position-- Get to where you can be effective before you make a move, or you just threw your life away and gave the shooter another gun. If I'm a teacher in a classroom, I'm not going to jump out in front of a shooter who has an automatic weapon and try to take him out with a pistol. I'm going to lie in wait with the front sight post chest-high on the door and wait until he opens it to get the first shot-off.
If he is in a hallway, I come up behind him and shoot him in the back (either from behind the door of a room he passed by or from around a corner). Active shooters do NOT cover their sixes.
Position being a key part of this-- the more armed 'good guys' there are the better. It increases the chances that at least one of you is going to be in an advantageous position at any given time which would minimize the potential loss of innocent life that would ensue while the 'good guy' maneuvered to get into a position to take a shot.
All that said: I've got a lifetime of military experience which started in the military police. I trust myself in this situation. I'm NOT suggesting that every teacher should try to gain the level of training and firearms experience necessary to be effective in these situations, but there are a lot of veterans, military retirees, former police officers, etc. who ALREADY HAVE the training and experience who are only lacking the authorization.
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Certainly not an untrained teacher, but perhaps if they want to be. On the other hand, I'd rather find a process to prevent it in the first place (easier said than done). I saw this article this week, and it's from a veteran on this very subject. You all can say his experience is accurate much more than I can. https://www.charlottefive.com/arming-teachers/
I've been shot in combat. And as a veteran, I'm telling you: allowing teachers to be armed is an...
After the most recent school shooting, NC State Rep. Larry Pittman said he wanted to work with police to train teachers and allow them to carry weapons at school. As an Army veteran, I've been in close quarter combat and can tell you this is not the answer. It will only cause more death and destruction.
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Susan Foster
Maj John Bell - Nope. Not on here. This is just our discussion. I've seen plenty of crazy stuff on social media and in opinion pieces. One side saying "they want to take all the guns" and the other saying "an unarmed, untrained teacher can't do this." You are right. Doesn't make a bit of sense.
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MSgt Walter Clack
Ms Foster, I fully agree prevention would absolutely be the best alternative. But, what happens when it does not work. The article you posted was very interesting and the author was very open in his view. However, cannot see any similarity between an ambush in the desert and a shooter in a school hallway or classroom. Seems like he is comparing apples to oranges. I wish there was an easy answer to this very difficult life ending problem our teachers face. Have often discovered in life that quite a few solutions come best when we do all the above. Have an armed guard, professional law enforcement, private security, Veteran, somebody. Automatic locking doors. Active shooter drills. Concealed carry personnel (trained VOLUNTEERS). All the above depending on the individual needs/resources of the faculty. I pray daily that there will never be another school shooting. Regrettable, there will be. The question is, "How well will the school be prepared???"
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COL Jon Lopey
Susan: I have been a cop for over 40-years and most gun owners in my county are responsible people. We armed teachers at one time in my county and they were well-trained, vetted, and motivated to do the right thing only in a last resort to save kids from getting slaughtered. As sheriff-coroner of my county, I signed the CCW permits. There are risks in this practice but most active-shooter incidents are over within five minutes. I would rather teachers or staff (trained volunteers) be armed and prepared to stop a psychopathic killer and save kids' lives than hope law enforcement can get there on time. Prevention, planning, layered security, locks, alarms, cameras, being alert, and other measures are necessary as well. Law enforcement responders are obviously a big part of the solution but that is often not the best response option because of response times. In my county, we have schools that will likely not be reached by deputies within 5-mninutes and some could take 30-minutes (6,172 square mile county). I disagree with the article's author. If everyone thought like that more people would be senselessly slaughtered in their homes, work, schools, and other locations. Responsible, armed citizens stop many tens of thousands of felonious assaults every year, most of the time without firing a shot. Thank you for the article and thoughtful commentary. COL L
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L CPL Timothy McCain — Something needs to give. We either hire or not, armed guards to protect our children. There was so many failures during this shooting. Next they going to say the gun was the bad guy. The gun only did what the shooter ask it to do. I would probably get my tail shot off but I would like to think I would do something.
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MSgt John McGowan
Cynthia Croft - I will agree. But I listen to a family member that works at a school and the amount of overage of office personnel and others could stand a lot of cut. You get a bunch running something like that (tax payer funded) they want to build little empimes and hold on forever. But nothing will change for the better unless we clean our mess up. A 17 year old showed more courage than the school guard. As a friend said’ I am pissed. Ex police officer. I am sure we will have a little more back and fore so hang in there.
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COL Jon Lopey
MSGT: I have a feeling you would stop the threat - At least you would try, which is commendable. The truth is, we cannot afford to put armed security guards or peace officers in all of our schools. If we could, we would. For example, in my county we have 26 schools, many of them small. We cannot enough deputies on the streets, let alone guard all of our schools. We visit the schools frequently, attempt to identify potential threats, and encourage physical security and alarm improvements. We also conduct drills and help with emergency plans. Thanks for the great points! COL L
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Yes, it is realistic. In close quarters combat a rifle is not always an advantage. They have a longer turn radius, they can bump into things and make it harder to get on target etc. Their primary advantage is range which is somewhat nullified by being inside a building with lots of walls. With a semiautomatic handgun you can lay down a fair amount of fire and you can maneuver a little easier too.
Most of the school shooters are not trained in close quarters combat. Most of the more infamous school shootings (Columbine, Sandy Hook, now Parkland) were done by Students or someone pretty young and no real experience.
Your Dallas example, which was outdoors, and the cops that were killed were hit in the initial surprise attack by someone that had taken up a position that a rifle gave a very significant advantage to. That is not normally the case in school shootings.
You will have to accept the fact that in any live shooter incident there will be confusion, panic, chaos etc. I would still rather have a few teachers (who are willing and trained) to have access to a firearm to offer up a defense. The bottom line is that right now, for the shooter, there is almost nothing to stop him. Even the cop on campus in this case failed to do his job and was suspended (see my post if you have missed this part of the story).
Most of the school shooters are not trained in close quarters combat. Most of the more infamous school shootings (Columbine, Sandy Hook, now Parkland) were done by Students or someone pretty young and no real experience.
Your Dallas example, which was outdoors, and the cops that were killed were hit in the initial surprise attack by someone that had taken up a position that a rifle gave a very significant advantage to. That is not normally the case in school shootings.
You will have to accept the fact that in any live shooter incident there will be confusion, panic, chaos etc. I would still rather have a few teachers (who are willing and trained) to have access to a firearm to offer up a defense. The bottom line is that right now, for the shooter, there is almost nothing to stop him. Even the cop on campus in this case failed to do his job and was suspended (see my post if you have missed this part of the story).
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Across a football field? Not likely, but possible. Inside a library or cafeteria? Very possible. As he enters a classroom through the door? Yeah, pretty easy.
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Of course. I believe they come from the same species of mammal that soldier emerge from: homo sapien. Some might have little apptitude and talent and other may have it. Arm those capable. Keep the number of armed teachers private and make carry concealed and that fact alone could be a deterrent.
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Capt Sabrena Goldman
Tha “keep the number of armed teachers private” is important. The faculty and staff would have to understand that too!!!
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