Posted on Oct 21, 2014
"Muslims Demand Army Change Its Dress Code To Include Turbans And Beards"
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What do you think about this? I will post my opinion after we rack up a few from some other members.
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 276
Uhm... that does not appear to be a muslim in that picture. He appears to be a sikh.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT Robert Hawks... Did you hear.. ? The new helmet will be call the Dark Helmet from space balls
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Sgt Yolanda Orozco
The muslims are demanding? We have our own regs and should be as is. If they don't like it join a service that will let you have a beard and turban. Not everyone can be in the service, it's a privileged. This is AMERICA, The United States of America. We can't just give in to everyone. What is our country coming too. First the illegals and now the muslims.
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SrA (Join to see)
This is true that the picture is a Sikh, but I'm sure many people apart of the U.S military do not want anything that looks like a middle eastern person with a beard in the military . Even if the rules changed, many people would be disgusted to see someone in uniform that look as the person in the picture looks.
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Concur with a couple of other comments on here. Sikhs have a religious requirement to wear the headdress they wear. Muslims do not. There is no requirement in the religion to do so. We don't account fo cultural norms in 670-1. We cannot allow it and we should not. Pretty simple. You want to celebrate and recognize culture...the Army has a culture...celebrate and recognize that. As far as the Sikh beard, that will last as long as we don't have a chemical threat and then we won't have to worry about it because they will all die since they can't seal their mask properly. I guarantee everyone in the military will understand why we require clean shaven faces and will overlook their religious requirements as soon as survival becomes a LIMFAC. The Army has a culture. When you join, you assimilate. We made a mistake with the Sikh change. It will reverse itself over time.
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SR Javier Betancourt
Sgt Michael Glenn it sounds to me like you feel like a minority. The rights given to every citizen is not sectioned of by race. The fact that there are people who will manipulate the system will never change, one thing is sure though, there will always be a sgt michael glenn whom feels what done to his race is wrong. Well think about yourself being black or hispanic. Im Mexican and damn proud of it but i put my neck on the line for the US just like my white comrades. Suck it up we live on this land that allows these atrocities you can't stand but thats our right and you could say what you want that's your right but to judge others based on the help provided through our government is hypocritical for i know plenty of whites who pull the same stunts MINORITIES do!
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Suspended Profile
SrA Ali Wins, I find the whole "shaving profile" a cop out. I'm 42 and for my entire life and career my face bleeds when I shave, I even dealt with it in BMT. Now, when I say "bleed" I don't mean a little, I mean A LOT! It bleeds so much, I literally look like I have a blood beard. This is NOT nicks or cut....my face just naturally bleeds for some reason. I have actually been OFFERED shaving profiles on more than one occasion. I declined the offers. I have spent hundreds of dollars and have (literally) tried every razor on the market....nothing works. I can take pics and post them, but it would probably gross you out.
I believe in conforming to military standards, not the other way around, and if I couldn't, then I would separate if the time came. I don't expect the military to change for me, because [I] made the decision to join, they didn't force me to join. You make a decision to move somewhere....then conform! If you can't conform, then leave....or don't go there in the first place! Don't expect the majority to conform to you! That is one of the problems with today's society....it's all "me, me, me"!
Stip using [your] personal norms for how the military should operate! If you can't, then leave!
Pecae out!
I believe in conforming to military standards, not the other way around, and if I couldn't, then I would separate if the time came. I don't expect the military to change for me, because [I] made the decision to join, they didn't force me to join. You make a decision to move somewhere....then conform! If you can't conform, then leave....or don't go there in the first place! Don't expect the majority to conform to you! That is one of the problems with today's society....it's all "me, me, me"!
Stip using [your] personal norms for how the military should operate! If you can't, then leave!
Pecae out!
Very troubling... While the military (actually our political leaders) have stopped anything to do with Christianity in the military, they now roll over and provide accommodations based on Muslim religious beliefs. Can't have it both ways...
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
SSG James Lopez
I guess one the problems I have with things like this, and it is not limited to the military, but includes commercial activities (like the Hobby Lobby situation, for example), is that folks knew the standards, rules, requirements, benefits, etc. before they voluntarily joined the military or accepted a job with a company, then, after they are in, they demand a change to those standards, rules, etc.
Of course, I also realize that, in many cases, it is not the individuals themselves, but outside persons and entities doing so "on their behalf" (even if they did not ask them to).
Don't like the standards, rules, etc.?? Get out... Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make you stay.
I guess one the problems I have with things like this, and it is not limited to the military, but includes commercial activities (like the Hobby Lobby situation, for example), is that folks knew the standards, rules, requirements, benefits, etc. before they voluntarily joined the military or accepted a job with a company, then, after they are in, they demand a change to those standards, rules, etc.
Of course, I also realize that, in many cases, it is not the individuals themselves, but outside persons and entities doing so "on their behalf" (even if they did not ask them to).
Don't like the standards, rules, etc.?? Get out... Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make you stay.
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PV2 Violet Case
How on earth can a turban protect your head from bullets or flying objects from explosions. This is America not a muslim country. We need to keep the military codes we have honored for every military way, Navy, Marines, Army, Air Force, and all need to keep their codes of honor for our country. If the Muslims do not like our beliefs tell them to get out of our country then. Because I hope and pray that all Americans will stand strong for our country and not bend an inch on this.
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I hate to sound like the A-Hole but this is the issue nation wide. Every organization out there is under stress to be conforming and cooperative to every single person's personal demands/requirements based on race, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It's an imposing and expensive undertaking and as soon as the dust settles from one set of changes, along comes another group with new requirements. You can't please ALL the people ALL the time but apparently that is what society and special interest groups are aiming for.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Well, that is pure stupidity. I don't think I can recall anyone ever asking (or demanding) they be able to wear a cross or crucifix (yes it has an "x", not a "c") INSTEAD of their dog tags. You have clearly demonstrated how out of touch you are. It is MY HONOR to serve, we don't serve to be honored, you're about 180* off center there MSG. It is pure PC, and it's purely asinine.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
I don't see enough argument FOR beards and the explanation on how people with them can get a good seal when donning any type of Gas Mask. Enter the argument to redesign masks to somehow work with beards ... (eyeroll).
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Col Jincy Hayes
The Navy used to allow beards. But the military is a discriminating employer. One cannot be obese, have flat feet, only one kidney, not be able to pass the PFT or PT test of their service in order to serve.
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Sgt Roger Newman
I was serving in the Corp when that happened and remember how it was beards and then sailors started dressing more sloppy in my opinion. Then it appeared that they started doing more of what each person believed was right. Not saying all Navy was like that but like my dad taught me as a kid. You do something bad everyone knows you and do something good and nobody knows you.
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This post and article is so misleading as to be nearly false. No religious group "demanded" anything. No change was made to regulations. Last January the DOD clarified the expectations for religious accommodations. The Army's regulations and policies required no changes. Religious accommodations continue to be done at the unit level on a case-by-case basis according to the same guidelines. And the Sikh Soldiers have been serving for several years with no issues (including wearing protective gear). I am deeply disturbed that so many NCOs and officers were apparently so unfamiliar with both the uniform regulations and the process for requesting religious accommodation that they did not recognize these facts. Even the most junior Soldier could have found the facts on http://www.snopes.com (since the inflammatory version of this article has made the rounds of internet, conservative, and extremist web sites for a while). Please see: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/armyturban.asp
Please educate yourselves so your Soldiers receive proper guidance.
Please educate yourselves so your Soldiers receive proper guidance.
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SGT Michael Glenn
Its no biggy Sgt Barbee, I have been rude to some of the idiots on this page , this whole issue with me began because one Idiot started chastising others because they did not follow her way of thought, This is a free country and its citizens should be free to voice them selves and shouldnt have to worry about someone telling them they should be ashamed of them selves JUST because they dont agree with others and that they are a disgrace to the military because they stand behind the Idea that giving special needs to Muslims, or ANY other culture race or religion will only cause more stress and open doors the military has been trying to keep closed for decades.As far as this being a topic that someone threw in to agitate the masses here, its done a good job !!! I hope all have learned that I will not be swayed one way or the other to stand my ground on issues I believe in.
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SGM Robin Johnson
I am on here for exactly the purpose of this message board, to continue to pass on my experience to those still on active duty. AR 600-20, Army Command Policy (and the corresponding Air Force and Navy Regulations and Instructions) are very clear about the issues at stake in the initial post and in the conversations that followed in this post. Were any active duty personnel to say some of the things they have posted in this forum in front of their commanding officers (or anyone who wished to file a complaint with their commanding officer, the IG, or an Equal Opportunity Advisor) they would be found in violation of their service's policies. If the complaint were formal, and the individual was an NCO or officer this would require a probably career-ending block-check or comment on their rating. So I advised them about the issue. If you would like more information on this issue I suggest you review Chapters 4-7 (for a full view of all the other related issues with which I believe you may also not have become familiar during your tenure on active duty) of AR 600-20, Army Command Policy. If you truly to believe only in supporting the profession of arms, then you should believe in upholding the regulation - so research it.
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SGT Michael Glenn
Johnson your experience seems to cater to demanding that people MUST change THEIR way of thought or they should be ashamed of themselves as people and as leaders, your own words girl. I have merely pointed out that not all people think like you do nor want to, because some of us believe that decisions like the main topic would even further weaken the military by giving in to Individual races.This to me is not teaching our new soldiers a damn thing, but how to open doors to chaos and a ruined military that has to bend and be shaped to what society wants them to be, not what it should be, any military is only as strong as its weakest link and that would be people like you who feel that its ok to single soldiers out and change uniform codes or other codes that have been intact for quite some time, Im sorry that I dont agree with what you think or say, and that I stand up against arrogant fools such as yourself. Your not in the Military anymore so get used to it, I think you and your goons are just upset because you never really got the respect any of you really wanted and have to try to cram your once upon a time rank onto people here which is sad and all of you should shame yourselves, not the other way around...have a good life and someday I hope all of you stop hiding behind your ranks and let people live free and have their own thoughts and beliefs.
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I read the article and it doesnt seem like any religious group is "demanding" anything. I know sikhs serve in the British and Canadian military proudly with their turban and beards, also the muslim population in the US Armed Forces being the low number that it is; isnt really demanding to wear beards, or not that I know of. Being muslim myself the only thing I am "demanding" is for my leave paperwork not being lost. Lol
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LCDR (Join to see)
I agree with you. Reading the story at hand before ranting is always a good idea.
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Suspended Profile
I really like this article.
SGT Gabriel G.
SFC, no one's going to read that lol. They're going to complain about a false article, based on an article from 5 years ago. People just want to complain about political correctness and then thinly veiled bigoted statements about Muslims.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
SGT Gabriel G. I actually read the article and am more motivated to learn more about the Sikhs. I have read the story of Simran Preet Singh Lamba and I find him to be an inspiring individual. I would be interested in meeting him.
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Sgt S.P. Woodke
as have I read the article and agree with you - however - am still steadfast in the fact that we don't pander/ alter our traditions...Simran Preet Singh Lamba knew what who we are and CHOSE to be part of...as have thousands before him...its all about the MELTING pot aka assimilation.
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I think it's ridiculous. The Military has uniforms for a few reasons, which include identifying us as a UNIFORM Military force, and to NOT identify as a bunch of individuals with guns. Heck the very word UNIFORM means "THE SAME".
This comment is not directed at Muslim, Sikh (as shown in the photo) or any other religion. I would say the exact same thing if it was any other "special interest" variance not directly related to furthering the mission. (such as relaxed grooming standards)
This comment is not directed at Muslim, Sikh (as shown in the photo) or any other religion. I would say the exact same thing if it was any other "special interest" variance not directly related to furthering the mission. (such as relaxed grooming standards)
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SGT Michael Glenn
What always boiled my pot were the Bobby brown hair cut fools or the soldiers who went out of their way to get a P-3 profile against shaving, then lounge around the barracks and ridicule the system for letting them get over.Racism is still very alive in the ranks and this will only ignite more fuel towards racism if allowed to be .
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SPC Elif Anderson
Perfect uniformity never existed and may never will until robots take over the fields. So till then, complaining and griping about something that always existed subconsciously only causes harm consciously. You have my respect for your respect of religion, Sgt Hanner.
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SSG Maurice P.
i agree perfect uniformity doesnt exist but if you would have joined the marine corps you would have gotten a glimpse of near perfect roflmao.............
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#1. That's not a Muslim . . . he is a Sikh!
#2. Don't give me any B.S. about uniformity . . . When the Infantry has the Blue Infantry cord, Cav has the Stetson and spurs, Maroon Airborne beret, Green Special Forces beret, Tan Ranger beret, Booney hat, patrol hat, etc., 3rd Inf Regt (TOG) buff strap, and many other "exceptions".
#3. Don't bother bringing up the seal of the protective mask, as the Sikh's have that figured out in the British Army, Canadian Army, Australian Army, as well as the Indian Army, Pakistani Army, and Danish military. Yes, the Sikh's are required to go through the gas chamber training, like any other soldier.
#4. The Sikh's have served in the US Army since WWI or possibly earlier, until the Regulation change in the late 70's - early 80's . . . wearing their turbans and beards. When the Reg change happened, the Sikh's left the Army, rather then shave or remove their turbans.
#5. The Sikh's have predominately served in the Special Forces during and shortly after Viet Nam.
#6. The Sikh's are a Warrior caste and highly decorated soldiers in every Army they have served in.
#7. Sikh's have one hell of a history in wars and are sworn enemies of Muslims. (They've defeated Muslim armies much larger then their own, causing heavy casualties among the Muslim forces.)
#8. The German's AND the Japanese forces during WWII were terrified of them, especially when they had to face them.
#9. I welcome them BACK into the US Army and would be proud to serve along side them.
This story started on http://www.americannews.com and has a highly inflammatory and false/misleading headline, meant to illicit responses from the ignorant. http://www.americannews.com is a strictly propaganda site, playing to the ignorant and uninformed.
#2. Don't give me any B.S. about uniformity . . . When the Infantry has the Blue Infantry cord, Cav has the Stetson and spurs, Maroon Airborne beret, Green Special Forces beret, Tan Ranger beret, Booney hat, patrol hat, etc., 3rd Inf Regt (TOG) buff strap, and many other "exceptions".
#3. Don't bother bringing up the seal of the protective mask, as the Sikh's have that figured out in the British Army, Canadian Army, Australian Army, as well as the Indian Army, Pakistani Army, and Danish military. Yes, the Sikh's are required to go through the gas chamber training, like any other soldier.
#4. The Sikh's have served in the US Army since WWI or possibly earlier, until the Regulation change in the late 70's - early 80's . . . wearing their turbans and beards. When the Reg change happened, the Sikh's left the Army, rather then shave or remove their turbans.
#5. The Sikh's have predominately served in the Special Forces during and shortly after Viet Nam.
#6. The Sikh's are a Warrior caste and highly decorated soldiers in every Army they have served in.
#7. Sikh's have one hell of a history in wars and are sworn enemies of Muslims. (They've defeated Muslim armies much larger then their own, causing heavy casualties among the Muslim forces.)
#8. The German's AND the Japanese forces during WWII were terrified of them, especially when they had to face them.
#9. I welcome them BACK into the US Army and would be proud to serve along side them.
This story started on http://www.americannews.com and has a highly inflammatory and false/misleading headline, meant to illicit responses from the ignorant. http://www.americannews.com is a strictly propaganda site, playing to the ignorant and uninformed.
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SSG (Join to see)
Well said. I've tried to make the same statements many times to many people. Deaf ears and all. I do have one flaw only in your statement that I would like to address: Yes, each sub section of the Army wears different head gear and items as over their uniforms. However, they are not religious in nature. I want to think/hope that this is what the complaint is about. Yes, the Sikh's area force to be recond with, I do not argue or disagree with you on this merits. They scare the shit out of even me. Most people have a problem with cowering to a religious symbol and not having them fall in line with the rest of the Army.
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CPT Steven Harder
It isn't a flaw in my comment . . .
The majority claiming "uniformity" is whom I was addressing. I did not include the religious "symbols/icon's", as that opens a whole new debate for some.
BTW, there is nothing to fear from Sikh's, as long as they are on your side . . . but, like you, I sure wouldn't want to be on the side opposing them.
The majority claiming "uniformity" is whom I was addressing. I did not include the religious "symbols/icon's", as that opens a whole new debate for some.
BTW, there is nothing to fear from Sikh's, as long as they are on your side . . . but, like you, I sure wouldn't want to be on the side opposing them.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Thank you posting all this info before I could get to it. Recently the rash of pseudo news sites like infowars and Americanews have been posting ignorant and inflammatory head lines on top of opinion peices with no journalistic integraty at all. I think if you can present a military appearance with a beard I don't see what the issue is.
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SGT (Join to see)
The last argument I heard about beards DOD-wide was beards tamper with the ability to get a tight seal while wearing a promask. I've heard while working with firefighters. Whether this has any REAL relevance is above you and me.
CPT Steven Harder Thanks for posting. I wasnt tracking their history.
CPT Steven Harder Thanks for posting. I wasnt tracking their history.
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Sounds like the Army has made its decision regarding headwear. It's a go, as long as it doesn't "interfere with military discipline, order, or readiness."
While the Muslims (CAIR) are apparently pleased with this change, the Sikhs don't believe it goes far enough. My question is, where will it end? Or will it end?
In general, I'm not for this type of accommodation, because I wonder what might follow. If DoD allows for turbans, scarves, and beards, what about a wiccan headdress? The list could go on and on and on.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WICCAN-Moon-Goddess-WICCA-Crown-CIRCLET-Headpiece-Headdress-Silver-Filigree-Goth-/ [login to see] 75
While the Muslims (CAIR) are apparently pleased with this change, the Sikhs don't believe it goes far enough. My question is, where will it end? Or will it end?
In general, I'm not for this type of accommodation, because I wonder what might follow. If DoD allows for turbans, scarves, and beards, what about a wiccan headdress? The list could go on and on and on.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WICCAN-Moon-Goddess-WICCA-Crown-CIRCLET-Headpiece-Headdress-Silver-Filigree-Goth-/ [login to see] 75
WICCAN Moon Goddess WICCA Crown/CIRCLET/Headpiece Headdress Silver Filigree Goth
US $14.99 New without tags in Jewelry & Watches, Handcrafted, Artisan Jewelry, Other Artisan Jewelry
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
And therein lies the problem, you give an inch and they want a mile. A religion that REQUIRES you to wear a beard, a headdress and carry a knife - hmmm...
I'm a believer in Elvisism so I am required to wear long styled, hair a white studded jumpsuit and sunglasses all the time. Think the Army would cut me a break, after all it is my religion.
I'm a believer in Elvisism so I am required to wear long styled, hair a white studded jumpsuit and sunglasses all the time. Think the Army would cut me a break, after all it is my religion.
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SFC (Join to see)
I literally just busted out laughing in my office after reading this set of comments.
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CMSgt (Join to see)
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
Sir, that comment was hilarious.....
Thank you! Thank you very much! Lol
Sir, that comment was hilarious.....
Thank you! Thank you very much! Lol
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