Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
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I have had something similar happen. Two PV2s in Rue 21 store, both in uniform, wearing their PC inside, both walking around the store with earbuds in listening to their music. I approached them both, asked if they were stationed here (Rucker), they both said "Yes". I showed them my ID. As soon as they saw the rank, and the look on my face, they fixed themselves with no further issue.
You can't just walk away from the situation. Letting substandard behavior go by, unchecked, means you just lowered the standard. You can't be afraid of what "could happen". Be concerned with what "is" happening. And fix it!
You can't just walk away from the situation. Letting substandard behavior go by, unchecked, means you just lowered the standard. You can't be afraid of what "could happen". Be concerned with what "is" happening. And fix it!
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SFC Mark Gagnon
next time, play it off like you think you know her, tell her your unit and ask her what hers is. After you get that information, take pics, and call the unit, and ask the 1SG for his cell # so you can send him a photo he might be interested in. Send him the photo, and a paragraph about the incident, and let him handle it. There is more than one way to skin the cat.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sounds like AIT in Enterprise....i've ran into many issues with soldiers during my time there. Sad part is while at the NCOA, you are powerless and not allowed to speak to the IET soldiers. No one wanted to risk that 1059.
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SPC (Join to see)
Absolutely, the moment that a standard was "let go" out of fear of catching a charge from a shitbag, is the moment that all discipline go out the window.
I hate being an asshole, but standards must be maintained. So sometimes I have to be an asshole. Screw what PVTs whine about, they aren't paid to be little bitchy asshats. They are paid to do as they are told, when they are told. And the be at the right place at the right time.
This SPC is clearly the PVT that slipped through the cracks of the bag of shits.
When in doubt, sir it out. Right? For all she could have known, you could have been A LTC or a WO. But no, she just rates to roll her eyes at whomever she chooses. All the while wearing her uniform however she pleases, wherever she pleases. And the PVTs I am around wonder why I hate them..... They are the real asshole.
I hate being an asshole, but standards must be maintained. So sometimes I have to be an asshole. Screw what PVTs whine about, they aren't paid to be little bitchy asshats. They are paid to do as they are told, when they are told. And the be at the right place at the right time.
This SPC is clearly the PVT that slipped through the cracks of the bag of shits.
When in doubt, sir it out. Right? For all she could have known, you could have been A LTC or a WO. But no, she just rates to roll her eyes at whomever she chooses. All the while wearing her uniform however she pleases, wherever she pleases. And the PVTs I am around wonder why I hate them..... They are the real asshole.
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SFC (Join to see)
Anyone can make a correction, but it takes skill y to do it in such a manor as to get the proper end result. Corrections should be done out the ear shot of others. Soon as she rolled her eyes at me I would be asking what unit they were in. Obviously the least would be to get her name and rank. As someone said previously visiting her PLTSGT, and or 1SGT, Sure they will "FIRE FOR EFFECT"
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PO2 Wayne Neva
MAJ Susan Grimm - Yes, well stated. To reprimand in private (ie, whisper in the ear) saves dignity all around. I'm sure the military appreciates low key encounters.
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CW2 Jo Alistair
MAJ Susan Grimm - I am fine with that. The old hard nosed military was far more professional than this new kinder more gentle military.
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SSG (Join to see) I commend you for your restraint. Civilians don't need to see us as ferocious rabid animals attacking and ripping apart smaller game. A SPC rolling her eyes at a SSG after admitting that she KNEW that she was in the wrong. Unbelieveable. In this touchy feely world with cameras roling 24/7, we have to be careful of how we are perceived, but as NCO's we have a job to do. I would politely ask to talk with he out of ear shot and I would whisper that if she didn't get back on track and square herself away that I would make it my mission in life to get to know her CSM and CO and to throw her disrespectful, unprofessional tushy out of my beloved service. There are great troops being cut left and right to accomodate her insubordination? I think not.
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CPL Matthew Pruett
You know I thinkit is a shame last I looked we were training soldiers silly me instead they want college environments. Dont yell at me don't scream don't touch me. These are what my three year old twins say. Not men and women training for war to pretect are great country 15 years ago it didn't matter how you felt or where you were if you were a Jo and you were wrong it got fixed on the spot.
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1SG (Join to see)
All service members have the right to not be touched, unless they are a direct threat to themselves or others. If you think saying "don't touch me" is silly or an indication of weakness or insubordination, I suggest you sit in a few more SHARP classes.
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SPC Roger F.
1SG (Join to see) - I went through basics in the late 80's and once heard a soldier yell "you're not allowed to touch me" to which the DI quickly replied "I'm not touching you. I am touching the uniform. You just happen to be in it."
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Correct her right away. Introduce yourself as an NCO and explain the negative light that she is shinning on the Army. She probably doesn't care about that, but she should still fix herself. If she still wants to be a dirt bag, you won't be able to change that and you will only ruin your evening if there is a scene in the mall. Not to mention that causing a scene will mean that you are shinning a negative light on the Army.
Get her first name and look her up on the AKO white pages. IF you find her you can contact her Chain of Command.
Get her first name and look her up on the AKO white pages. IF you find her you can contact her Chain of Command.
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SGT Kevin McCourt
I've been in plenty of units where you straighten up, or enjoy extra duty, lose rank as the result. SPC Scott, just that comment portrays what a lot of us older vets think of todays soldier. Laid back is something you can do flipping burgers. You are a professional soldier. Act like it.
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PO3 Joseph Vernola
Uniform regs are there for a reason. If one can't follow them or doesn't see the importance in them, then I'm worried about what else one doesn't follow or see the importance in.
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SFC Stephen Flanagan
It is more than just simply doing the on the spot correction, As SFC Cortese states it is also about being on public display as the proverbial face of the Army. It is important for service members to understand that the public is always watching. You should always maintain standards whether on or off post. As a young NCO you need to able to make the on the spot correction and not accept anything else other than compliance. If that Soldier fails to comply you have a duty to report the Soldier to the chain of command. This isn't just about NCOs what ever happened to general military authority. If someone is out there not following policies and regulations you have an obligation to the make the correction.
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SGM (Join to see)
For the ones who say they won't correct on the spot because they are with there spouse. I can not tell you how many time my wife who has only been around the army for about 4.5 years mind you. Will call someone out in a heart beat about there uniform, it is a disgrace when someone who is supposed to be representing the military wears their uniform improperly. You are a Soldier 24/7 and should hold the standards at all times. Do the heard right instead of the easy wrong. NCO's lead the way
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SPC (Join to see)
Some ppl never change , a uniform doesn't makes a soldier , Training n Discipline do .. basic training was a joke for her .. she joined for the paycheck ,I can tell.
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SSG Mike Brown
If you put chevrons on your chest...it is your place to do something. If a soldiers's own leadership is lacking and the soldier feels like they can act like their on the block, it is the job of every other SOLDIER, not just NCO's to fix it. On the spot corrections are a DUTY of an NCO. If you are unable to do that you do not need to have the ability or authority to give lawful orders.
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
If you are a Veteran you have earned the right to say something when you see a person screaming to be corrected on the spot.
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
Lt, walking away from someone obviously in the wrong is an jntegrity violation. As an officer you are charged with the duty to lead. Leaders don't walk away from problems, the solve them.
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Really wish they would bring back Corrective Custody. SPC or PVT catches an attitude with an NCO Throw their Sorry butts into the stockade. Have them cutting the grass with scissors and a ruler.
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1LT (Join to see)
I dont see the direct correlation in the type of corrective action used but i do like the idea of corrective custody as long as used right and not abused. Im sure someone ruined for all of us though
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SSG John Bacon
it's like Mr. Miaggi's work only your raking dirt or painting rocks. Tedious busy work all to improve the landscape and make you not to ever go back there again.
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SGT (Join to see)
I've edged sidewalks with a scissors just because I was told to. That wasn't even a punishment, 1SG said so.
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Capt Michael Brown
The political correctness that is killing our country has spilt over into the ranks of our military. I agree with you SSG Bacon. When I was a Lcpl , we had us a 1st Sgt. that would make your knees shake. Even a hint that he would get a phone call would have had anyone standing tall and correcting the issue immediately.
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As a Professional Military Education Facilitator and soon to be Instructor, I would have definitely taken her aside explained who I was, and then explained her obvious disregard for the regulation covering dress and appearance. Also what it does to the public opinion when they see soldiers in uniform, whether they know of infractions or not, it's still the responsibility of the member to ensure they wear the uniform properly. With all the threats lately with ISIS targeting Military members it was also irresponsible of her to be out in public in uniform. She had total disregard for her safety and those around her attending that movie.
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Cpl Jeff N.
If wearing a US Military uniform in the United States is irresponsible and is considered a safety issue we certianly are in trouble. The odds of being a victim of a terrorist attack here in the US are pretty small. While I am not a fan of wearing that particular uniform in public I would always encourage those that serve to wear a uniform to events as they see fit.
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SCPO Chuck Reitz
Being a retired Navy Senior Chief the corrective actionwouldhave been quick. I never understood the reason why the USA and USAF allow a working uniform out in public. I retired in 2002 and the Dept of the Navy (USMC) were not allowed out in a working uni, cammies or anything else. Military order and disciplne require tough choices, accept that or find another line of work.
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LTC Bill Dorman
Senior Chief, I am retired Army, live in Virginia Beach...work at NSA Norfolk and have worked at Little Creek. I hate to burst your bubble about Navy duty uniforms on and off base, but the Navy has slacked off, too. Off base and everywhere around here and I mean EVERYWHERE, there is some Navy guy or gal, officer or enlisted, in his funny looking blue camies. The standard has dropped horribly for all of us.
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SGT (Join to see)
Now I can't fully comment on the regulation however, I know that as a young PVT in 2008 a buddy of mine wanted to show me the motorcycle he was buying on our lunch break and we were both pulled aside by a LTC and chastised for being in uniform at the bike shop. It's always been the way I was taught that you do not "go out" in uniform. I understand the idea that she could have been in a training environment and possibly not had civvies, but others saying they would, as people in positions of authority, go out with a uniform on seems about as wrong as a tanker with a CIB. We lead from the front, correct the Soldier with tact and drive on.
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This is always a challenge, but if we don't enforce standards, the public sees an unprofessinal appearance. I recently met a Soldier in a grocery store who was in ACU trousers, tan T-shirt, and boots. He was not wearing his shirt, and didn't have his headgear with him. I was in civilian clothes; I quietly approached him, identified myself (and had my ID card in hand), and asked him why he didn't have on his shirt or have his hat with him.
The Soldier very self-righteously said that he didn't need to wear it, since he was off-duty! I explained the regulations, and told him I would watch his grocery cart while he went back to his car to get the rest of his uniform. He refused, so I asked him for his ID card, unit of assignment, and supervisor.
Imagine my surprise to find out he was an Active Duty Major assigned to the Army Staff at Pentagon.
But better yet, imagine his suprise to find out that his supervisor was answering questions as to why his Major was out of uniform and disrespectful to a Brigadier General.
The Soldier very self-righteously said that he didn't need to wear it, since he was off-duty! I explained the regulations, and told him I would watch his grocery cart while he went back to his car to get the rest of his uniform. He refused, so I asked him for his ID card, unit of assignment, and supervisor.
Imagine my surprise to find out he was an Active Duty Major assigned to the Army Staff at Pentagon.
But better yet, imagine his suprise to find out that his supervisor was answering questions as to why his Major was out of uniform and disrespectful to a Brigadier General.
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BG Edward Burley
CSM Michael Sweeney - You may have read it too quickly. He was not wearing his shirt or headgear, just T-shirt, trousers, and boots. It wasn't pre-planned - just undisciplined.
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MAJ Byron Hill
I was chatting with someone about you last week. It was all good, of course. We were talking about great leaders during our careers. Miss ya sir!
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I would have lost my mind... Not only would I have corrected her but I would have asked a lot of questions because she is one of the reasons females get a bad name. Not on my watch!!! Even though I am no longer in uniform... That is a "no go" at this station.
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MSG Brad Sand
SSG (Join to see)
There were time I wished that all soldiers took as much pride in their uniforms as JrROTC cadets...hair cuts is another story.
There were time I wished that all soldiers took as much pride in their uniforms as JrROTC cadets...hair cuts is another story.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG Brad Sand, well, on that point I would have to dispute as I have seen the bulk of the current JROTC cadets at my son's school. I'm saddened to say this but many of them look raggedy with long hair and a few with jacked up uniforms. My son's hair is barely within regs but it's much much shorter than several cadets.
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MSG Brad Sand
SSG (Join to see)
I think I said they took pride in there uniforms, not that they put together to standard. Additionally, there is a retired officer and senior NCO who should be making sure those uniforms are right as well. But the kids (starting to sound like a Liberal) hearts are in the right place.
I think I said they took pride in there uniforms, not that they put together to standard. Additionally, there is a retired officer and senior NCO who should be making sure those uniforms are right as well. But the kids (starting to sound like a Liberal) hearts are in the right place.
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SSgt Lonnie Montgomery
SGT Raquel Zornes,
“Not on my watch!” Sgt Zornes, with that attitude, I would be proud to serve alongside you anytime anywhere. Thanks.
“Not on my watch!” Sgt Zornes, with that attitude, I would be proud to serve alongside you anytime anywhere. Thanks.
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What in the...??? Totally unacceptable and unprofessional. The fact she reacted to you in such a manner speaks volumes on her lack of discipline and values. I concur 100% with SFC John Gates. You should definitely try to track down her unit and her 1SG, maybe even her CSM. WOW!!!
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CPT (Join to see)
I am just going to say she is doing a great job at making the army look bad. I am not sure I was there what I would have done. It would have ranged from me asking them to leave so they can fix themselves but it could go as far as a running clothesline from behind. I am thinking the clothes lines would have been more appropriate.
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1SG David Niles
Oh, Heck no, on the spot, would have started out with, let me see your ID. Would have followed with getting her licence plate and headed to the PMO. Head gear inside, Hair all hanging out, and then to be rude when she got caught, na huh, that would not be done.
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SGT (Join to see)
Eye rolling to a NCO does not fly. I was smoked like a dog as a PVT in Iraq because my Squad Leader said he thought he saw me roll my eyes. Make the correction and find out the unit. Then let her leadership know about it. Maybe it as just and Infantry thing but if my TL/SL got called out for me being jacked up by someone else I was dead. Spotlight them and the SQD/PLT/ETC it was a bad day.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see), exactly. Definitely need to inform the Soldier's leadership since she wants to willingly and wantonly disregard regulations.
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