Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
I think that it should be done within reason and in a certain fashion. I was always told that you should come up, introduce yourself, with rank (showing ID if needed). State the problem and ask for them to fix themselves. If they do not try to gather information on their unit so you can report them to their chain and at least have the issue corrected by them.
Sometimes its also a judgment call though. I saw a young sailor walking outside without his cover on in uniform while I was in mine. I did observe though that was walking very quickly to get inside then went to get lunch (at a super market), so I just walked by him, gave him a look, he dropped his eyes and got the point across that he needed to be attentive to bring along his cover when he obviously forgot it. No words needed.
Sometimes its also a judgment call though. I saw a young sailor walking outside without his cover on in uniform while I was in mine. I did observe though that was walking very quickly to get inside then went to get lunch (at a super market), so I just walked by him, gave him a look, he dropped his eyes and got the point across that he needed to be attentive to bring along his cover when he obviously forgot it. No words needed.
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If you're going to make a correction then ask her to step aside for a moment so you can speak to her privately. Public chastising will only serve to build walls between her and senior leadership. Also civilians see this and wonder why it's acceptable for you to treat grown men and women like children.
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1SG (Join to see)
Nope, he should've went in and corrected her, period. We have created this culture of comfort here in the Army to where we feel that we shouldn't hurt people's feelings in public. How about we start looking at things like we use to? If you did not mess up in public, then I wouldn't have to treat you like a child in public. We all know the regulations, yet we blatantly disregard them because we feel like it. Then, when someone gets up in your grill about it, you want to cry disrespect. The "new" Army allows this type of BS and then wonder why Soldiers are undisciplined. They have no fear of repercussions for their actions. When I was a young Soldier I kept myself within regs because 1) I am proud of the uniform that I wear, 2) I want others who see me to be proud of their country and their Soldiers that are sworn to protect them, and 3) I lived in constant fear that if I were to be out of regulation in public that some NCO/Officer type would rip my ass right there on the spot, and they would be well in their right because I'm the one that is out of regs not them. Our country look at us nowadays and laugh at us because we have become so undisciplined and we look like smashed feces out in public.
We need to bring back that old style of discipline that kept Soldiers on their toes and looking sharp. Or....we can continue to not enforce the standards and let Soldiers like the one in the photo become the leaders of your sons and daughters.
We need to bring back that old style of discipline that kept Soldiers on their toes and looking sharp. Or....we can continue to not enforce the standards and let Soldiers like the one in the photo become the leaders of your sons and daughters.
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IMO you should not have backed down, but simply asked her for her unit and names of command members, she had a choice to make at that moment, to either be respectful to the branch she swore an oath to or to be like many are and be disrespectful, you didnt force her to knowingly violate policies so she has only herself to be pissed off at.
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Post the picture on your installation facebook page. Hopefully someone from her unit will recognize her and will be able to do something about it.
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Been there, corrected that. This is why the Navy and Marines could not wear our dungarees/cammies in public for most of my 20 years.
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PO1 Chris Crawley
Sorry, LCPL, but Marines are allowed off base in cammies to hit a restaurant for lunch, or Walmart on the way home.
Didn't used to be that way.
Didn't used to be that way.
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SSG Lewis Fronk
Navy is allowed only quick stops!! Army officer wore his ACU's to Walmart last year a reservist going too drill was at check out some towelhead attacked him and the CPT. had to fight him off video made all the news around here, with todays threats it's risky to wear anywhere!
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First I would have identify myself and ask her to step aside to make the on the spot correction. Also I would asked for her unit information and chain of command. This is not the first time this took place and maybe more than this going on in her unit. Just remember to stay calm and educate her of her wrong doing.
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SSG (Join to see)
Roger SGM. I didn't want to escalate the situation. I was in Dallas, TX no where near a Army base that I was aware of. After the initial attitude I saw the conversation was going. As a very level headed NCO I just removed myself from the situation.
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I am proud of you for realizing the situation may have caused a public scene more detrimental to the Army's image than the infraction of AR 670-1. A possible follow on action would have been to give the Soldier the opportunity to talk to you outside of public view, eliminating possibility of embarrassment. If the Soldier refused, you could take the information possible and contact the MP's to see if a courtesy patrol is in your area to help.
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Gettum SGT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am usually professional but I would have lit her up!
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If me i'll write down her name and unit, if she being nice and understand her mistake i'll let it go if she have an attitude, i'll go head and write her info and talk to her unit chain of command.
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She was wrong and she knew it. You did the right thing. I would have approached her and asked to talk privately. I would have let her know she was wrong. I would have gotten her Unit, NCO, 1SG, and commander. I would contact her CoC especially if she got an attitude. No yelling or silly stuff at the movie theater. Good way to get arrested. I have seen it happen.
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Best bet would be to pull her to the side and make her fix herself we are soldiers 24/7 and if you think the public is not watching you are wrong this is one of my pet peeves one soldier can make us all look bad. If she refuses and gets attitude find out what unit she is with and report her to her chain of command and hopefully they will fix her.
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When they are so ate up you can't let it slide and when they are embarrassing the military.
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CPT Quentin von Éfáns-Taráfdar
What no one has so far mentioned in this discussion that I have seen is that "her" uniform is also "my" uniform and that blatant flouting of the regulations is insulting to me and every other service member.
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I was not going to make a comment about this thread, but after reading a fairly significant amount of the comments on this subject here, I could stand it no longer.
Is there anyone that has made a comment related to the military members not knowing the proper dress, believe that an individual in the pay grade of E-4 does not know the proper appearance for their branch of service?
For those of you that are in the Top Three group, no matter what your service or current affiliation, do you not teach or learn in the respective NCO courses about General Military Authority?
Even disregarding Stolen Valor laws, wearing of a US military uniform IS against the law; just because it is not enforced or enforced improperly still does not mean that it is not against the law. I would suggest that you read 10 USC 771 and 772 and the respective regulations in regards to your branch of service.
And for those of you that have made the young SSG (E-6) appear to have conducted himself in an unbecoming manner, I would suggest that you reread the original statement or read it if you have not already done so. I believe that the young SSG deported himself quite well and extracted himself from a situation in a professional manner, when he did not know what to do. He then presented his conundrum to his peers and colleagues in this forum, and a number of you have stated that he could have done a better job; this was not a failure on his part, it was a failure of the leadership that this young soldier has had over the years that he has been in the service. For those of you that know the proper way of handling this situation, have you taught or are you actively teaching your subordinates Leadership in regards to situations like this, if not, you need to take a step back and reevaluate your statements.
Is there anyone that has made a comment related to the military members not knowing the proper dress, believe that an individual in the pay grade of E-4 does not know the proper appearance for their branch of service?
For those of you that are in the Top Three group, no matter what your service or current affiliation, do you not teach or learn in the respective NCO courses about General Military Authority?
Even disregarding Stolen Valor laws, wearing of a US military uniform IS against the law; just because it is not enforced or enforced improperly still does not mean that it is not against the law. I would suggest that you read 10 USC 771 and 772 and the respective regulations in regards to your branch of service.
And for those of you that have made the young SSG (E-6) appear to have conducted himself in an unbecoming manner, I would suggest that you reread the original statement or read it if you have not already done so. I believe that the young SSG deported himself quite well and extracted himself from a situation in a professional manner, when he did not know what to do. He then presented his conundrum to his peers and colleagues in this forum, and a number of you have stated that he could have done a better job; this was not a failure on his part, it was a failure of the leadership that this young soldier has had over the years that he has been in the service. For those of you that know the proper way of handling this situation, have you taught or are you actively teaching your subordinates Leadership in regards to situations like this, if not, you need to take a step back and reevaluate your statements.
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LTC (Join to see)
I agree, impersonating a US official (including military) has always been against the law. Doesn't need a material gain. Stolen valor would have to cover situations where they wear an unearned medal on civilian clothes or the lie to get the unearned benefit.
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Absolutely NOT acceptable. ALL sevicemembers are not only taught, but are expected to UPHOLD ALL regulations regarding the uniform at all times when clothed in the same. AS an NCO, should you have made her fix herself? Definitely. Show her your CAC card, and state your name and rank. If she refuses to correct her infaction on the spot accordingly, she is violating a directive from a noncommissioned officer. At that point, you get name, rank and unit, track her little butt down, and report her blantant disregard for regulation, and disrespect to a noncommissioned officer to her Chain of Command. is it harsh? Maybe, but is it also your responsibility, as a leader of troops? Certainly. and given that she rolled her eyes at you, some on the spot corrective training probably wouldnt hurt. Sometimes you have to be an asshole to make a good leader.
Sorry for the language. That type of thing gets me pretty heated.
Sorry for the language. That type of thing gets me pretty heated.
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Wow. That's pretty bold of that SPC. I think that corrections are necessary no matter the siutation, but the way in which we approach them should be particular to that situation. Just me being me, I would have shown her my ID card (if I were in civilian) clothes) and have her fix herself ASAP. If she refused to comply, I would have been at personnel so quick the next day it would make her unauthorized ponytail spin. You did the right thing by not making a scene, but if she would have known you were a NCO she may have corrected herself.
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Yes, you IMHO opinion of had her cough up her CAC card and identified herself. If she wanted to play dumb - cellphone pic and AKO. Theres two kinds of military authority - command relationship and general. Even out on the town, USAR/NG/AD you got it. Glad you said SOMETHING to her. What a slug.
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@SSG Dontre' Robinson
Although some on RP may only see me as a PFC, it is your duty as a soldier and an NCO to set the example for others to follow. Remember, no one is more professional than I. Now I do not mean that you should hound on another soldier in front of everyone but simply bring the soldier to the side and correct them from there. Just the other day I corrected a E-5 at the mall for having his hands in his pockets and playing on his phone while walking in uniform. This being said it was much later in the night and I belive the NCO should have changed going to the mall. But I confronted the NCO with respect and insisted that he correct himself for he must set the example for other soldiers and civilians nearby. Although I wasn't given an attitude, he corrected himself and nodded his head. Professionalism is important and although some civilians may not know what right looks like in the military world, that does not mean that it is okay to be unprofessional while other soldiers aren't around. I applaud you for keeping a level head SSG but walking away from that SPC was a no go.
Although some on RP may only see me as a PFC, it is your duty as a soldier and an NCO to set the example for others to follow. Remember, no one is more professional than I. Now I do not mean that you should hound on another soldier in front of everyone but simply bring the soldier to the side and correct them from there. Just the other day I corrected a E-5 at the mall for having his hands in his pockets and playing on his phone while walking in uniform. This being said it was much later in the night and I belive the NCO should have changed going to the mall. But I confronted the NCO with respect and insisted that he correct himself for he must set the example for other soldiers and civilians nearby. Although I wasn't given an attitude, he corrected himself and nodded his head. Professionalism is important and although some civilians may not know what right looks like in the military world, that does not mean that it is okay to be unprofessional while other soldiers aren't around. I applaud you for keeping a level head SSG but walking away from that SPC was a no go.
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1SG (Join to see)
What a great response. And you know, we all started as "only a PFC." It makes me smile knowing that there are young Soldiers like you out there that are preparing themsleves for the next leadership role.
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On the spot corrections are always appropriate and that is our responsibility to make them as leaders. What is not appropriate is making a scene when doing them or degrading or belittling them in the process. If given attitude it is not necessary to get in a dispute especially if not on a military installation. What I have done though is written down the Soldiers name and taken a picture of there unit patch and contacted the unit and make them aware of the issue. Walking away is okay when the environment does not support the confrontation but what is not ok is for getting about it and not trying to follow up on it. I applaud you for making this correction and remember we cannot fix everything but we must continue to try.
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I had a very similar situation this past week in a mall in Phoenix. Man wearing ACUs with the wind breaker (the one without patches on the arms), IR tab was hanging out, sun glasses hanging from the front of the uniform and completely unshaven. I asked him about his service, he was wearing SSG rank and caught attitude with me when I called him out for being out of regs. When violent threats were made I walked away. There is no need for someone getting hurt, however, it angered me so badly that I couldn't just shake it. I do wish there was more that could be done to correct these issues.
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So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation?
You make the on the spot correction. If the individual gives you attitude, is belligerent about fixing themselves, you use what information you can to find the persons unit, first line leader, 1SG, CSM, etc., and make them aware of the individuals actions. At this point in time, with technology being what it is, it shouldn't be too hard to get that information.
You make the on the spot correction. If the individual gives you attitude, is belligerent about fixing themselves, you use what information you can to find the persons unit, first line leader, 1SG, CSM, etc., and make them aware of the individuals actions. At this point in time, with technology being what it is, it shouldn't be too hard to get that information.
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GySgt Joe Johnston
iF HE COPS AN ATTITUDE LEAVE,BEFORE HE CREATES A SCENE LIKE BUSTING U IN THE MOUTH...
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You have every right to correct. Being both lower enlisted and Army Guard, I know it's common knowledge that she shouldn't be jacked up (especially not in front of civilians) and shouldn't even be at the theater in uniform since she is not currently called for inactive duty military service.
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Anytime is appropriate, of course the audience should be minimized if at all possible. Standards are standards, if people want to complain oh I am Mational Guard and don't get treated the same (just an example) then they should meet or exceed the standards just like the rest of the Soldiers, NCO's, and Officers do. Just saying.
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I heard a funny story just like that. The CSM of the KY National Guard was in civilian clothes out with his wife eating at a fast food joint and a SPC rolled up with black boots and ACUs. (It was the transition time from BDUs to ACUs). The CSM walked up to her and told her that was not authorized to be worn together. She did the old eye rolling and she asked him who he was. He said it did not matter who he was he was just making a correction. She started getting loud he just walked away. The next day he had somebody track down this SPC and he made a visit to the command. The SPC got busted and the 1SG got a mouth full.
So the story goes as I heard it from Joe.
So the story goes as I heard it from Joe.
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SSG (Join to see)
That's awesome. While I do believe he should have identified himself, in the end it doesn't matter because she was jacked up and he was making a proper correction.
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AS an NCO you have the duty to make on the spot corrections. I think I would have tried to get her in a more private situation find out what unit she was assigned to when first started to show attitude and then contact the unit First Seargent
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if you feel that making the correction on the spot is problematic especially after the given attitude she displayed, use your photo. Go up and ask her for her "Alert roster" And her 1SG's or Commanders name. If she refuses she is violation of standing orders for all US Soldiers to submit that data when asked.(accept under POW circumstances) And then take the photo and send it to her CoC. I have had the issue of walking a soldier who was in violation of AR 670-1. to CSM at Ft Hood(3rd corp). You are honor bound to correct the infraction. If she dislikes it tough! She doesn't deserve to wear it.
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Yes - leadership is situational but is always there! An "On the Spot" correction was warranted!
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As NCOs, it is our job to make on the spot corrections at all times, regardless of rank or location. I have corrected CSMs in garrison, soldiers standing in line at subway, and even national guardsman who work at Walmart. My wife never seems to understand why it pisses me off so much, but she has learned to deal with it. Continue the good fight. We are the backbone of the army and all it stands for.
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You should have just told her that she is the face of the military and as such, she needs to hold herself to the proper standards that go with wearing the military uniform.
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