Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
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I think a leader not making the correction because the lower ranking service member can be just as bad as the situation. While I agree you shouldn't make a scene at the mall, the SM needed to be corrected. There is always a way to get the SM corrected without making a scene.
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CSM (Join to see)
When we as leaders do not make a on the spot correction we are just as wrong as the individual needing the correction.
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CSM (Join to see)
Furthermore, on the spot correction should be used as a mentoring tool and not a but chewing.
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When I was in the Army (1988-1995) I was always taught that you represent the Army 24/7. I would expect that this is a standard across all branches of service. SMSst Thomas has it point on. The correction(S) needed must be made at that time.
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I would have stood there till she took the hat off....and put her hair up...if she didnt comply.. i would have gotten her first name and unit....if she refused to provide that info...i would have made it my personal mission to get it...and pay a visit to her 1SG....
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Just made a rallypoint account because I saw this on Facebook and laughed out loud. I can't believe there is an actual discussion on some guy trying to fix some girl in the mall and a million people praising him. Everything that's wrong with the military in one paragraph besides corruption. Just leave her alone. My guys get stopped in the PX or the gas station on base all the time because we are allowed to wear modified uniforms (salomons, merrells, no patches etc) by people who can't mind their own business. I shouldn't have to explain to every person who has one more rocker (and no combat time) than me why I am wearing what I am. It's not like I woke up that morning and said "Fuck the rules, I'm going to wear whatever boots I want today." Now that girl has a black cloud over her head for the rest of the day because I'm sure you bummed her out. Just mind your own business. It's not hurting you any.
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1LT (Join to see)
Your sentiment is understood. And I don't get everyone on here saying, just be polite, pull her to the side, blah, blah, blah. But most leaders should be able to tell the difference between some highspeed in their special allowances of uniforms because of their job, on a base at that, and a shitbag Soldier in the mall. So yeah it was hurting me because like you, I saw this on FB and made an account to comment. And yeah I have combat time. Apparently all of her leaders have been nice to her and pulled her to the side all of her career and thats why she is in a mall looking like that. She is the kind of Soldier that get people injured or killed because they just mind their own business and let them do whatever the hell they want. But she is probably desk jockey so you're not getting paid or you're missing half of your awards.
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SSG Mike Brown
This is exactly why our military is going down the crapper. An NCO, is NCO 24 hours a day. They are not just an NCO on Monday, or just on post. An NCO is an NCO while they are asleep. As for pulling her to the side; that is exactly what should be done. I've seldom seen anything good come out of public ass reaming. Most of the time it is counter productive.
As for combat time...I got it too. I also have time in Regt., where standards are enforced. Fail to meet the standard, strike one, don't uphold another, strike 2, don't meet another DONE!
This is far from an issue of deing highspeed or anything like that. It's a matter of upholding and enforcing the easy to understand the standards....there are entire manuals on it. If you don't know, can't find it, ask. But to blatantly disregard regs, the soldier without question should have been corrected. I can't believe any NCO worth a crap would question the judgement of the leader in this case. You say mind your own business...ON THE SPOT CORRECTION, UPHOLDING AND ENFORCING STANDARDS AND REGULATION IS "YOUR BUSINESS IF YOU ARE AN NCO!
It not like she was on some tiny COP in Afghanistan with 130* heat and she rolled up her sleeves. I was actually threatened with Article 15 by the 1/40th Cav, 4th Briagde, 25th ID, CSM (was not my unit) for cuffing my sleeves just below the elbow. Our uniform standards were put out by our leadership (the senior leadership assigned to the COP) that do whatever makes you more comfortable, within reason. I took my ass chewing, roger that SGM, rolled them down. When he flew out, went back to our standards. But this was not her case.
Another reason I got out twice. NCO's scared to do their job. Easier to hand their head and ignore the problem rather than grab their nuts and correct it. Bullshit!
As for combat time...I got it too. I also have time in Regt., where standards are enforced. Fail to meet the standard, strike one, don't uphold another, strike 2, don't meet another DONE!
This is far from an issue of deing highspeed or anything like that. It's a matter of upholding and enforcing the easy to understand the standards....there are entire manuals on it. If you don't know, can't find it, ask. But to blatantly disregard regs, the soldier without question should have been corrected. I can't believe any NCO worth a crap would question the judgement of the leader in this case. You say mind your own business...ON THE SPOT CORRECTION, UPHOLDING AND ENFORCING STANDARDS AND REGULATION IS "YOUR BUSINESS IF YOU ARE AN NCO!
It not like she was on some tiny COP in Afghanistan with 130* heat and she rolled up her sleeves. I was actually threatened with Article 15 by the 1/40th Cav, 4th Briagde, 25th ID, CSM (was not my unit) for cuffing my sleeves just below the elbow. Our uniform standards were put out by our leadership (the senior leadership assigned to the COP) that do whatever makes you more comfortable, within reason. I took my ass chewing, roger that SGM, rolled them down. When he flew out, went back to our standards. But this was not her case.
Another reason I got out twice. NCO's scared to do their job. Easier to hand their head and ignore the problem rather than grab their nuts and correct it. Bullshit!
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I would have said something. You are a NCO for a reason. Stop think of public opinion. If you are right with the regular then quote it to her (AR 670-1). BAM..... You should pull her to the side and tell her.
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Personally I would gave identified myself and my rank. Then i would have pulled her over to somewhere quiet, foubd out her unit and ger first line leaders name. and addressed it with her. If she started an attitude then there begins her downfall as it is disrespect to an NCO. With the unit info and her FLL name it would then be addressed to them to handle. But above all else the mibute she rolled her eyes get a witness. I have veen in a similiar situation and the fact I had a witbess saved me a ton of geartache wwhen the corrected soldier trued to say i was being inappropiate towards a female. So make the correctiobs vut make sure you cover your six in case it goes south.
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Agreed, make the correct without making a public scene. So he approaches the Soldier, she admits that she is not in regulation. Well great, so she apparently doesn't care. What then do you do? It is kind of clear that this Soldier doesn't care and it would of just created a scene if anything else was said at that point.
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SSG (Join to see)
Yes!!! The simple fact that she recognized that she was out of regs both with the hair and the headgear. I figured that it was not worth a fight or arugment with her. I had to protect my GF in that situation..
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There's only so much you can do in public with shitbags sadly. Did you consider pulling her up via the Army equivalent of MOL and having a quiet word with her chain of command? Not officially mind, but "Hey SSgt, one of your joes is out of her fucking mind." Not wearing a cover or something is a spot correction, that level of fuck up's a bit more then you can deal with outside of a professional environment, never mind off base in a crowded civilian area.
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On post, or in a mall. Service members fall under the UCMJ. If a standard is not enforced, the standard has been changed.
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I would have pulled her aside and told her she is making a complete idiot of herself in public. While most civilians don't know the rules of wearing a military uniform they do have an idea of what a military member should look like. Professional and well kept. The female in the picture you posted in the question looks like crap. I also would have asked her why she thinks going out like that anywhere looks decent. She looks like the equivalent of a person wearing a pair of ratty stained sweatpants and matching t-shirt who didn't take a shower in the last couple days.
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I think that it should be done within reason and in a certain fashion. I was always told that you should come up, introduce yourself, with rank (showing ID if needed). State the problem and ask for them to fix themselves. If they do not try to gather information on their unit so you can report them to their chain and at least have the issue corrected by them.
Sometimes its also a judgment call though. I saw a young sailor walking outside without his cover on in uniform while I was in mine. I did observe though that was walking very quickly to get inside then went to get lunch (at a super market), so I just walked by him, gave him a look, he dropped his eyes and got the point across that he needed to be attentive to bring along his cover when he obviously forgot it. No words needed.
Sometimes its also a judgment call though. I saw a young sailor walking outside without his cover on in uniform while I was in mine. I did observe though that was walking very quickly to get inside then went to get lunch (at a super market), so I just walked by him, gave him a look, he dropped his eyes and got the point across that he needed to be attentive to bring along his cover when he obviously forgot it. No words needed.
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If you're going to make a correction then ask her to step aside for a moment so you can speak to her privately. Public chastising will only serve to build walls between her and senior leadership. Also civilians see this and wonder why it's acceptable for you to treat grown men and women like children.
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1SG (Join to see)
Nope, he should've went in and corrected her, period. We have created this culture of comfort here in the Army to where we feel that we shouldn't hurt people's feelings in public. How about we start looking at things like we use to? If you did not mess up in public, then I wouldn't have to treat you like a child in public. We all know the regulations, yet we blatantly disregard them because we feel like it. Then, when someone gets up in your grill about it, you want to cry disrespect. The "new" Army allows this type of BS and then wonder why Soldiers are undisciplined. They have no fear of repercussions for their actions. When I was a young Soldier I kept myself within regs because 1) I am proud of the uniform that I wear, 2) I want others who see me to be proud of their country and their Soldiers that are sworn to protect them, and 3) I lived in constant fear that if I were to be out of regulation in public that some NCO/Officer type would rip my ass right there on the spot, and they would be well in their right because I'm the one that is out of regs not them. Our country look at us nowadays and laugh at us because we have become so undisciplined and we look like smashed feces out in public.
We need to bring back that old style of discipline that kept Soldiers on their toes and looking sharp. Or....we can continue to not enforce the standards and let Soldiers like the one in the photo become the leaders of your sons and daughters.
We need to bring back that old style of discipline that kept Soldiers on their toes and looking sharp. Or....we can continue to not enforce the standards and let Soldiers like the one in the photo become the leaders of your sons and daughters.
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IMO you should not have backed down, but simply asked her for her unit and names of command members, she had a choice to make at that moment, to either be respectful to the branch she swore an oath to or to be like many are and be disrespectful, you didnt force her to knowingly violate policies so she has only herself to be pissed off at.
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Post the picture on your installation facebook page. Hopefully someone from her unit will recognize her and will be able to do something about it.
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Been there, corrected that. This is why the Navy and Marines could not wear our dungarees/cammies in public for most of my 20 years.
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PO1 Chris Crawley
Sorry, LCPL, but Marines are allowed off base in cammies to hit a restaurant for lunch, or Walmart on the way home.
Didn't used to be that way.
Didn't used to be that way.
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SSG Lewis Fronk
Navy is allowed only quick stops!! Army officer wore his ACU's to Walmart last year a reservist going too drill was at check out some towelhead attacked him and the CPT. had to fight him off video made all the news around here, with todays threats it's risky to wear anywhere!
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First I would have identify myself and ask her to step aside to make the on the spot correction. Also I would asked for her unit information and chain of command. This is not the first time this took place and maybe more than this going on in her unit. Just remember to stay calm and educate her of her wrong doing.
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SSG (Join to see)
Roger SGM. I didn't want to escalate the situation. I was in Dallas, TX no where near a Army base that I was aware of. After the initial attitude I saw the conversation was going. As a very level headed NCO I just removed myself from the situation.
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I am proud of you for realizing the situation may have caused a public scene more detrimental to the Army's image than the infraction of AR 670-1. A possible follow on action would have been to give the Soldier the opportunity to talk to you outside of public view, eliminating possibility of embarrassment. If the Soldier refused, you could take the information possible and contact the MP's to see if a courtesy patrol is in your area to help.
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Gettum SGT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am usually professional but I would have lit her up!
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If me i'll write down her name and unit, if she being nice and understand her mistake i'll let it go if she have an attitude, i'll go head and write her info and talk to her unit chain of command.
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She was wrong and she knew it. You did the right thing. I would have approached her and asked to talk privately. I would have let her know she was wrong. I would have gotten her Unit, NCO, 1SG, and commander. I would contact her CoC especially if she got an attitude. No yelling or silly stuff at the movie theater. Good way to get arrested. I have seen it happen.
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