Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
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ha, my 1sg would have torn her apart, gotten her unit info, then stood there as her command came and ripped her apart. Thats an NCO's job. standards and discipline....
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As NCO's it is our responsibility to make those corrections regardless of how uncomfortable we may feel. Anytime you fail to correct a violation you just "set a new standard." Your authority to make corrections on other military members extend beyond the boundaries of a military installation. Military members regardless of their branch of service are required to comply with legal orders or corrections of individuals senior to them. I always pulled soldiers to the side to make corrections. A major part of leadership is being able to influence others, so initially ask the violator to make the correction because he/she is representing all Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines when they wear that uniform in public. If the individual fails to comply do not simply walk away and let it go, that's not the NCO way.
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That's what's wrong with the corps today. NCO's don't quite get it! Become aware of your military authority and defend our standards! "Backbone"!!!!!
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You did the right thing. We all have a duty to make respectful and professional corrections, as well as receive them when we are wrong and say thanks; especially in public. If they respond postively and fix it that is good, if not get their PII and report it to the CofC.
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CW4 Brian Haas
He absolutey positively did not do the right thing. He let her get away with disrespect to an NCO on top of being out of uniform. I sincerely hope these are not the standards that you would want in your brigade by Specialists and E-6s. I really hope you just misread the original post.
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COL Charles Williams
I am confused? I meant he did the right thing by confronting her, not the outcome. Perhaps there were better ways to handle it, but he did confront her. Many many leaders will not even do that. Many leaders walk away or by corrections and confrontations. My point was he did the right thing by confronting her. I believe I also said what to do if the person does not respond accordingly? And for the record, I expected everyone in the organizations I had the privilege to lead to follow my lead, and to meet the same standard regardless of rank. What would you recommend you do, if Soldier blows you off in a public place? I thought my response was pretty straight forward.
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in a situation such as this, in a very public area, I would have shown her my ID asked to speak with her privately where she would have the opportunity to correct herself without public embarrassment.
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Yes, I say we make the corrections immediately. Unacceptable! I know it's all wrong and we do have to say something and fix it. By the way that is not a PT cap it is a watch cap authorized with the green fleece and is not part of the IPFU.
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SGT (Join to see)
You mean to tell me that the WATCH CAP is not for WATCHING movies? I mean, it seems like a logical assumption to me!
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ooooohhhhhhhh man.
excuse my expression SSG Dontre' Robinson but i believe that you approaching this soldier in public is the right thing to do regardless. With a good portion of these new soldiers joining the army, with my explicit opinion, -a good portion of them are not the best to look at and see "soldier" with many of these newer generation "soldiers" not taking what is learned in BASIC to heart. you decided to make a commitment to the Army for the time you are serving. Get off your ate up ass and get right.
I dont believe in public humiliation, however with her rolling her eyes at you i would have had no issues continuing to ask for her company information, and paying a visit. As with being a SPC (as i am) its a bit harder for me to pull off, but when i was able to have a conversation with that soldiers NCO, things turn out quite interesting.
The 7 army values are there for a reason -what happened to them? apparently its something to be ignored.
excuse my expression SSG Dontre' Robinson but i believe that you approaching this soldier in public is the right thing to do regardless. With a good portion of these new soldiers joining the army, with my explicit opinion, -a good portion of them are not the best to look at and see "soldier" with many of these newer generation "soldiers" not taking what is learned in BASIC to heart. you decided to make a commitment to the Army for the time you are serving. Get off your ate up ass and get right.
I dont believe in public humiliation, however with her rolling her eyes at you i would have had no issues continuing to ask for her company information, and paying a visit. As with being a SPC (as i am) its a bit harder for me to pull off, but when i was able to have a conversation with that soldiers NCO, things turn out quite interesting.
The 7 army values are there for a reason -what happened to them? apparently its something to be ignored.
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I don't put up with attitude. If she hadn't given an attitude and had decided to care about what you had just said than it would have been different, but in this case I don't care if a million civilians were around you don't disrespect someone of a higher rank regardless of whether or not they are from your command and give them an attitude when you know they are right. That is unacceptable. I was always told that I should introduce myself rank and last name first before I say anything so that way they know who they are dealing with and then they can't give me any excuse as to why they gave me attitude later on.
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Once a soldier, always a soldier. 24/7/365. You represent the military and should always conduct yourself as. Politely ask her to fix the problem and move on
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On the spot corrections are warranted at any time.not wearing the uniform correctly is disrespectful and an e4 should know that.lock that as up and correct that trooper
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I think a leader not making the correction because the lower ranking service member can be just as bad as the situation. While I agree you shouldn't make a scene at the mall, the SM needed to be corrected. There is always a way to get the SM corrected without making a scene.
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CSM (Join to see)
When we as leaders do not make a on the spot correction we are just as wrong as the individual needing the correction.
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CSM (Join to see)
Furthermore, on the spot correction should be used as a mentoring tool and not a but chewing.
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When I was in the Army (1988-1995) I was always taught that you represent the Army 24/7. I would expect that this is a standard across all branches of service. SMSst Thomas has it point on. The correction(S) needed must be made at that time.
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I would have stood there till she took the hat off....and put her hair up...if she didnt comply.. i would have gotten her first name and unit....if she refused to provide that info...i would have made it my personal mission to get it...and pay a visit to her 1SG....
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Just made a rallypoint account because I saw this on Facebook and laughed out loud. I can't believe there is an actual discussion on some guy trying to fix some girl in the mall and a million people praising him. Everything that's wrong with the military in one paragraph besides corruption. Just leave her alone. My guys get stopped in the PX or the gas station on base all the time because we are allowed to wear modified uniforms (salomons, merrells, no patches etc) by people who can't mind their own business. I shouldn't have to explain to every person who has one more rocker (and no combat time) than me why I am wearing what I am. It's not like I woke up that morning and said "Fuck the rules, I'm going to wear whatever boots I want today." Now that girl has a black cloud over her head for the rest of the day because I'm sure you bummed her out. Just mind your own business. It's not hurting you any.
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1LT (Join to see)
Your sentiment is understood. And I don't get everyone on here saying, just be polite, pull her to the side, blah, blah, blah. But most leaders should be able to tell the difference between some highspeed in their special allowances of uniforms because of their job, on a base at that, and a shitbag Soldier in the mall. So yeah it was hurting me because like you, I saw this on FB and made an account to comment. And yeah I have combat time. Apparently all of her leaders have been nice to her and pulled her to the side all of her career and thats why she is in a mall looking like that. She is the kind of Soldier that get people injured or killed because they just mind their own business and let them do whatever the hell they want. But she is probably desk jockey so you're not getting paid or you're missing half of your awards.
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SSG Mike Brown
This is exactly why our military is going down the crapper. An NCO, is NCO 24 hours a day. They are not just an NCO on Monday, or just on post. An NCO is an NCO while they are asleep. As for pulling her to the side; that is exactly what should be done. I've seldom seen anything good come out of public ass reaming. Most of the time it is counter productive.
As for combat time...I got it too. I also have time in Regt., where standards are enforced. Fail to meet the standard, strike one, don't uphold another, strike 2, don't meet another DONE!
This is far from an issue of deing highspeed or anything like that. It's a matter of upholding and enforcing the easy to understand the standards....there are entire manuals on it. If you don't know, can't find it, ask. But to blatantly disregard regs, the soldier without question should have been corrected. I can't believe any NCO worth a crap would question the judgement of the leader in this case. You say mind your own business...ON THE SPOT CORRECTION, UPHOLDING AND ENFORCING STANDARDS AND REGULATION IS "YOUR BUSINESS IF YOU ARE AN NCO!
It not like she was on some tiny COP in Afghanistan with 130* heat and she rolled up her sleeves. I was actually threatened with Article 15 by the 1/40th Cav, 4th Briagde, 25th ID, CSM (was not my unit) for cuffing my sleeves just below the elbow. Our uniform standards were put out by our leadership (the senior leadership assigned to the COP) that do whatever makes you more comfortable, within reason. I took my ass chewing, roger that SGM, rolled them down. When he flew out, went back to our standards. But this was not her case.
Another reason I got out twice. NCO's scared to do their job. Easier to hand their head and ignore the problem rather than grab their nuts and correct it. Bullshit!
As for combat time...I got it too. I also have time in Regt., where standards are enforced. Fail to meet the standard, strike one, don't uphold another, strike 2, don't meet another DONE!
This is far from an issue of deing highspeed or anything like that. It's a matter of upholding and enforcing the easy to understand the standards....there are entire manuals on it. If you don't know, can't find it, ask. But to blatantly disregard regs, the soldier without question should have been corrected. I can't believe any NCO worth a crap would question the judgement of the leader in this case. You say mind your own business...ON THE SPOT CORRECTION, UPHOLDING AND ENFORCING STANDARDS AND REGULATION IS "YOUR BUSINESS IF YOU ARE AN NCO!
It not like she was on some tiny COP in Afghanistan with 130* heat and she rolled up her sleeves. I was actually threatened with Article 15 by the 1/40th Cav, 4th Briagde, 25th ID, CSM (was not my unit) for cuffing my sleeves just below the elbow. Our uniform standards were put out by our leadership (the senior leadership assigned to the COP) that do whatever makes you more comfortable, within reason. I took my ass chewing, roger that SGM, rolled them down. When he flew out, went back to our standards. But this was not her case.
Another reason I got out twice. NCO's scared to do their job. Easier to hand their head and ignore the problem rather than grab their nuts and correct it. Bullshit!
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I would have said something. You are a NCO for a reason. Stop think of public opinion. If you are right with the regular then quote it to her (AR 670-1). BAM..... You should pull her to the side and tell her.
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Personally I would gave identified myself and my rank. Then i would have pulled her over to somewhere quiet, foubd out her unit and ger first line leaders name. and addressed it with her. If she started an attitude then there begins her downfall as it is disrespect to an NCO. With the unit info and her FLL name it would then be addressed to them to handle. But above all else the mibute she rolled her eyes get a witness. I have veen in a similiar situation and the fact I had a witbess saved me a ton of geartache wwhen the corrected soldier trued to say i was being inappropiate towards a female. So make the correctiobs vut make sure you cover your six in case it goes south.
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Agreed, make the correct without making a public scene. So he approaches the Soldier, she admits that she is not in regulation. Well great, so she apparently doesn't care. What then do you do? It is kind of clear that this Soldier doesn't care and it would of just created a scene if anything else was said at that point.
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SSG (Join to see)
Yes!!! The simple fact that she recognized that she was out of regs both with the hair and the headgear. I figured that it was not worth a fight or arugment with her. I had to protect my GF in that situation..
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There's only so much you can do in public with shitbags sadly. Did you consider pulling her up via the Army equivalent of MOL and having a quiet word with her chain of command? Not officially mind, but "Hey SSgt, one of your joes is out of her fucking mind." Not wearing a cover or something is a spot correction, that level of fuck up's a bit more then you can deal with outside of a professional environment, never mind off base in a crowded civilian area.
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On post, or in a mall. Service members fall under the UCMJ. If a standard is not enforced, the standard has been changed.
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I would have pulled her aside and told her she is making a complete idiot of herself in public. While most civilians don't know the rules of wearing a military uniform they do have an idea of what a military member should look like. Professional and well kept. The female in the picture you posted in the question looks like crap. I also would have asked her why she thinks going out like that anywhere looks decent. She looks like the equivalent of a person wearing a pair of ratty stained sweatpants and matching t-shirt who didn't take a shower in the last couple days.
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